Palestine and Israel

[Willo]

Hmm, when someone starts to bring up the nazis you know they are desperate.

Hey David, *smile* off, you sniper.
You're just trying to stir the pot even more. So give it a spell..
If you want to have a go at me, then do so.

You’ve been watching me and Sin today, you got your wish. Having other people at loggerheads and you sit there having a chortle in the background. You are weak as *smile*.

So now here it is.
Grow up, be an adult. Don’t be a weak bastard and tell lies. Don’t try to draw other people in.

 

[Willo]

Let’s leave it at that.

There is one thing we can all agree on I hope and expect and that is the wish for peace. I listened to a podcast a while back featuring two young women, one Palestinian from East Jerusalem and the other Israeli Jew from west Jerusalem. They are friends
They disagree on some things but agree on one thing which is that what is needed as a start is better leaders.

Yep, agreed.
There are stories of long held friendships between some Palestinians an Israelis. It’s a pity people of that ilk, that strength of character and courage aren’t able to get in a position to help change. Yet. Not an easy task t9 actually achieve such a position and a hell of a lot of work in front of them to make worthwhile change.

Somehow there needs to be a clean out of the militant rabble within the Palestinian camps. How? Or is that possible? I’m not sure, But they won’t stand idly by and let the doves take charge.

The same as Israel. Too many hawks, too many far right wing politicians and political parties. What will change? Or will it?
No doubt, on that side of the fence, people only want a peaceful for themselves and families. The same as the Palestinians who cherish their families (exceptions in the minority) want.

Both sides have experienced loss of life and injuries to families and friends. Destruction, terror, trauma, mental and psychological scarring.
Will the remaining people be able to overcome all that. Or is going to affect the next generation as well.

Whatever happens, it’s going to be a very big task. And I think it’s got a way to go to reach a conclusion to where it’s at now.

 

[Willo]

A light hearted skit. I’m sure someone somewhere will take offence.

 

[Sintiger]

Yep, agreed.
There are stories of long held friendships between some Palestinians an Israelis. It’s a pity people of that ilk, that strength of character and courage aren’t able to get in a position to help change. Yet. Not an easy task t9 actually achieve such a position and a hell of a lot of work in front of them to make worthwhile change.

Somehow there needs to be a clean out of the militant rabble within the Palestinian camps. How? Or is that possible? I’m not sure, But they won’t stand idly by and let the doves take charge.

The same as Israel. Too many hawks, too many far right wing politicians and political parties. What will change? Or will it?
No doubt, on that side of the fence, people only want a peaceful for themselves and families. The same as the Palestinians who cherish their families (exceptions in the minority) want.

Both sides have experienced loss of life and injuries to families and friends. Destruction, terror, trauma, mental and psychological scarring.
Will the remaining people be able to overcome all that. Or is going to affect the next generation as well.

Whatever happens, it’s going to be a very big task. And I think it’s got a way to go to reach a conclusion to where it’s at now.

Logic tells us that it is more likely in Israel than Palestine or in Gaza at least.
There is no functioning government at the moment in Gaza and whatever authority Hamas operatives have would probably be in certain areas only rather than across the board. It’s hard to rise up against against something that doesn’t really exist at the moment. Clearly there are some operatives there but there is no way Hamas is controlling Gaza now, not like before. If you think about the people power movements elsewhere they had an organising force and sometimes a figurehead. In the middle east Arab springs there were mass demonstrations. The conditions in Gaza don’t really make that possible I would think. At least that’s what I suspect is the case.
At least in Israel they have a functioning government and a process for changing government and decisions. We have already seen demonstrations there and it is actually a strange mix. You have the traditional peace activists, of which there are many in Israel, and then you have those affected by the kidnappings and those supporting a deal to get the hostages returned.
That is my main hope, not that I hold out much of it. That there is too much pressure on the government internally within Israel and at least the first step of a ceasefire of some decent duration can occur. If that happens we have to hope that some *smile* in Gaza doesn’t lob a missile over the fence.

 

[TigerMasochist]

. If that happens we have to hope that some *smile* in Gaza doesn’t lob a missile over the fence.

Isn't that what just happened in Rafah the other day???? Hamas lobbed a handful of missiles at some Israeli base n then promptly announced they accepted a ceasefire they'd worked out with Egypt n Qatar. Knackers Bibi simply turned around n said yeah, nah. Not happening n started lobbing a heap of kabooms back into Rafah.
Caught a snippet on CNN while channel surfing n some septic ex general reckons Hamas played it super smart by stalling for time n forcing Israel to over react again so they could make Israel look like total arseholes to the peace loving western world by smashing the innocent Palestinian victims again. Reckons that Hamas don't give a stuff how many Palestinians get smeared in the process, it's now all about turning everyone against Israel.

 

[Willo]

Isn't that what just happened in Rafah the other day???? Hamas lobbed a handful of missiles at some Israeli base n then promptly announced they accepted a ceasefire they'd worked out with Egypt n Qatar. Knackers Bibi simply turned around n said yeah, nah. Not happening n started lobbing a heap of kabooms back into Rafah.
Caught a snippet on CNN while channel surfing n some septic ex general reckons Hamas played it super smart by stalling for time n forcing Israel to over react again so they could make Israel look like total arseholes to the peace loving western world by smashing the innocent Palestinian victims again. Reckons that Hamas don't give a stuff how many Palestinians get smeared in the process, it's now all about turning everyone against Israel.

Of course.
Hamas, the PLO and their masters Iran play the PR game beautifully.
Bomb, kill, slaughter, rape and kidnap are hallmarks of their trade in terror. Then they play the victim when retribution is at hand.
Hide behind innocent civilians, under schools and hospitals, pop out and do it again. Then back down the hole. Of course their sympathisers refuse to admit to them using their own people as humans shields! Or schools and hospitals as cover.
They just built 700klm’s of tunnels at a cost of $billions just to play hide and seek in.

And people wonder why Israel is hellbent on eradicating Hamas. If there was a permanent ceasefire and the war stopped, no one with an ounce of sense would expect Hamas terrorists to disarm and go find a job.
They’d get bored with peace after 5 minutes. They’d rearm and carry on business as usual.

They were negotiating temporary ceasefire and release of hostages. While that’s going on Hamas showed their good faith by lobbing missiles and mortars at border crossings. Now Israel has secured those, slowing up aid coming in.
Guess who suffers. Guess who will be bleating that Gazans are lacking aid, are starving, have no fuel etc.
You couldn’t make this *smile* up.
I’m positive Hamas doesn’t want this to end. They want to drag it out as long as they can. Regardless of their own people suffering. They don’t give a *smile*.
The more of the civilian Palestinians that die does Hamas cause the more good.

Even the Palestinian sympathisers and those knucklehead student protesters should be able to see that.
But obviously something within their brain refuses to let common sense thoughts get through

 

[Sintiger]

Isn't that what just happened in Rafah the other day???? Hamas lobbed a handful of missiles at some Israeli base n then promptly announced they accepted a ceasefire they'd worked out with Egypt n Qatar. Knackers Bibi simply turned around n said yeah, nah. Not happening n started lobbing a heap of kabooms back into Rafah.
Caught a snippet on CNN while channel surfing n some septic ex general reckons Hamas played it super smart by stalling for time n forcing Israel to over react again so they could make Israel look like total arseholes to the peace loving western world by smashing the innocent Palestinian victims again. Reckons that Hamas don't give a stuff how many Palestinians get smeared in the process, it's now all about turning everyone against Israel.

Just to be clear my comment was in the context of what happens after a ceasefire is put in place. It was the last line of a post about that process. Right now there is no ceasefire but to be 100% clear I don't condone lobbing missiles over the fence in either circumstance. However I also don't condone the bombing of Rafah at the moment either.

What is needed is a 2 step process. First there needs to be a temporary ceasefire whilst everyone stops and negotiates, Israel stops bombing and attacking Rafah, it reopens the border they have now closed so that aid can flow in and Hamas stops sending in missiles, then negotiate. There can be no meaningful negotiations whilst fighting continues because then we get this tit for tat attacking going on. It has happened before so it is not unprecedented but it would require at least some hostage release.

To understand how the majority of Gazans feel about a ceasefire you only have to look at what happened in the last couple of days. There was a story/information that Hamas had agreed to a ceasefire and there was dancing in the streets, people coming out cheering and crying. The problem was that was true but what they agreed to was the Qatari proposal which was then rejected by Israel, so it was premature and sadly wrong ( without knowing what the proposal was it is hard to judge it) . Whilst Hamas may not want a ceasefire the Gazan people obviously do but they have no power, it is very sad.

 

[Willo]

Just to be clear my comment was in the context of what happens after a ceasefire is put in place. It was the last line of a post about that process. Right now there is no ceasefire but to be 100% clear I don't condone lobbing missiles over the fence in either circumstance. However I also don't condone the bombing of Rafah at the moment either.

There has to be pause. There has to be some compromise between both parties. Easier said than done, I know.
But both being so bloody dogmatic only affects one group. They have no power, but cop the whack.

What is needed is a 2 step process. First there needs to be a temporary ceasefire whilst everyone stops and negotiates, Israel stops bombing and attacking Rafah, it reopens the border they have now closed so that aid can flow in and Hamas stops sending in missiles, then negotiate. There can be no meaningful negotiations whilst fighting continues because then we get this tit for tat attacking going on. It has happened before so it is not unprecedented but it would require at least some hostage release.

Powerbrokers on both sides only think more about saving face. There are innocent people bearing the brunt of all this. The kidnapped hostages, the Gaza civilians (for the main).

To understand how the majority of Gazans feel about a ceasefire you only have to look at what happened in the last couple of days. There was a story/information that Hamas had agreed to a ceasefire and there was dancing in the streets, people coming out cheering and crying.

yeah because they’re the ones paying a hefty price for Hamas intransigence. The people have had enough. The absolute majority anyway.

The problem was that was true but what they agreed to was the Qatari proposal which was then rejected by Israel, so it was premature and sadly wrong ( without knowing what the proposal was it is hard to judge it) . Whilst Hamas may not want a ceasefire the Gazan people obviously do but they have no power, it is very sad.

I read a little of what the proposal was. It seems Israel was blindsided with some aspects of the deal. Apparently they didn’t have anyone in Cairo(?) when Egypt, Qatar and the US came up with the proposal. Hamas supposedly announced in before Israel got a copy or some such bull *smile*.
It’s hard to posture a solution in Gaza . Whether Hamas is on the nose with the common Palestinian or not.
But Hamas ruling Gaza is a major block with Israel to accept, and work a peace deal. I can’t see it happening when you consider the all the talk from Israel demanding and planning the end of Hamas.

What do the common Palestinians do from here? Do they start a militia to oust Hamas? Do they have the numbers, the courage or the will to do anything about Hamas?
Do they elect a defacto leadership seeing they haven’t had an election for nearly 20 years. does the PA have any compulsion to step into Gaza?
Does such a leadership or the PA work with Israeli special forces to finger where Hamas terrorists have their cells, arms and ammunition? Apparently there still 3 or 4 Hamas battalions still waiting to meet Allah.

There are a lot of what ifs, a lot of questions without easy answers.
But it’s time the Palestinians civilians and family leaders and clan leaders stood up . It’s time the PA signalled to Israel they need to sit down with them. Not just with the Hamas butchers. Maybe the PA has to go into Gaza with the Israelis to combat Hamas and to help protect their people. Hamas certainly doesn’t give a *smile* about the Gazans. That’s bleeding obvious.

 

[Sintiger]

There has to be pause. There has to be some compromise between both parties. Easier said than done, I know.
But both being so bloody dogmatic only affects one group. They have no power, but cop the whack.

Powerbrokers on both sides only think more about saving face. There are innocent people bearing the brunt of all this. The kidnapped hostages, the Gaza civilians (for the main).

yeah because they’re the ones paying a hefty price for Hamas intransigence. The people have had enough. The absolute majority anyway.

I read a little of what the proposal was. It seems Israel was blindsided with some aspects of the deal. Apparently they didn’t have anyone in Cairo(?) when Egypt, Qatar and the US came up with the proposal. Hamas supposedly announced in before Israel got a copy or some such bull *smile*.
It’s hard to posture a solution in Gaza . Whether Hamas is on the nose with the common Palestinian or not.
But Hamas ruling Gaza is a major block with Israel to accept, and work a peace deal. I can’t see it happening when you consider the all the talk from Israel demanding and planning the end of Hamas.

What do the common Palestinians do from here? Do they start a militia to oust Hamas? Do they have the numbers, the courage or the will to do anything about Hamas?
Do they elect a defacto leadership seeing they haven’t had an election for nearly 20 years. does the PA have any compulsion to step into Gaza?
Does such a leadership or the PA work with Israeli special forces to finger where Hamas terrorists have their cells, arms and ammunition? Apparently there still 3 or 4 Hamas battalions still waiting to meet Allah.

There are a lot of what ifs, a lot of questions without easy answers.
But it’s time the Palestinians civilians and family leaders and clan leaders stood up . It’s time the PA signalled to Israel they need to sit down with them. Not just with the Hamas butchers. Maybe the PA has to go into Gaza with the Israelis to combat Hamas and to help protect their people. Hamas certainly doesn’t give a *smile* about the Gazans. That’s bleeding obvious.

There can be no deal without compromise, it’s impossible

The situation in Gaza makes it impossible for the people to stand up, they are just trying to survive. Maybe Fatah..I don’t know tbh