U.S Presidential Election | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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U.S Presidential Election

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
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I've argued for a while that China is evolving, or has evolved into a unique eastern incarnation of Fascism.

During Mao's time it was a totalitarian Communist dictatorship (of the Leninist denomination). What has happened is that the CCP has done away with the communist economic model and replaced it with a form of State sponsored capitalism. But it has retained the totalitarian Leninist governance structure. The combination creates probably the most perfect example of organised systemic crony capitalism we have ever seen - one very important ingredient of fascism.

One missing ingredient up until relatively recently was a strong sense of ethno-nationalism. Under Xi's rule the ethno-nationalistic element has become increasingly prevalent.
Nice post. Have never really known which word best describes totalitarian regimes of the left.
Ethno-nationalism is scary stuff. Not much room for tolerance. No grey areas. Was surprised at the strength of conviction of many of the chinese students studying here who disapproved of any expression of free speech concerning the Hong Kong protests.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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Nice post. Have never really known which word best describes totalitarian regimes of the left.
Ethno-nationalism is scary stuff. Not much room for tolerance. No grey areas. Was surprised at the strength of conviction of many of the chinese students studying here who disapproved of any expression of free speech concerning the Hong Kong protests.

yeah, agree with a lot of that PT. I think there are differences between extreme left regimes like North Korea, Cambodia under Pol Pot, and far right like Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco. Iraq under Saddam maybe. But they are all totalitarian, they seek utter control of the population in both the public and private spheres, so the differences become academic.

Trump has fascist tendencies - cult of personality, desire to deconstruct existing systems of law and government, blurring of his personal businesses and the office of president, oppression and demonisation of minorities, constructing "enemies" both inside America and outside it. But like I keep saying, he never had the discipline or frankly the intellect to become a true fascist leader. He got the cult of personality thing going for base, but never had the power or discipline to force it on the rest of the population.
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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Nice post. Have never really known which word best describes totalitarian regimes of the left.
Ethno-nationalism is scary stuff. Not much room for tolerance. No grey areas. Was surprised at the strength of conviction of many of the chinese students studying here who disapproved of any expression of free speech concerning the Hong Kong protests.
And this is where we need to be careful at deciphering between the CCP regime and ethnically Chinese people. The two are not one in the same.

On the ethno-nationalistic side of things, the CCP has a very deliberate strategy of blurring this line. They are essentially coercively trying to take ownership over 'Chineseness' for want of a better description. Therefore creating a situation where all Chinese history of past greatness, all Chinese culture and all people around the world of ethnically Chinese extraction are synonymous with and owned by the current regime. Which is a completely contrived fabrication of reality.

Two good friends of mine are of ethnically Chinese extraction. One from Taiwan, the other ethnically Chinese from Indonesia. They look on with this with disdain or even horror. Their families haven't lived in China for 60-80 years (some branches of their family tree, even longer). And their families watched on with sadness as Mao's regime tried a near Pol Pot style year zero approach of contemptuously purging China of it's links to past cultural history and starting again. Some branches of one of these friend's family actually escaped that period to SE Asia (as did millions of others to many parts of the world). So they find it extremely sanctimonious and cynically calculated for the CCP to now try and claim ownership over 'Chineseness'. As a result, some of the most vocal critics of the CCP regime are actually in these older established, 'Overseas Chinese' communities.

But here's the crux. This strategy of muddying the waters between the regime and Overseas ethnically Chinese people is not only about the CCP regaining power over older established 'Overseas Chinese' communities. It's also about using some of our weaknesses against ourselves. Because a country like Australia does have a regrettable history with such policies as the White Australia policy. There is a tendency to sometimes overcompensate and jump at shadows with cries of racism at the slightest sign, even when there isn't any racist intent. Hence any criticism of the CCP regime becomes and is framed as racist criticism of Chinese people. And hence the view is shut down without listening to any nuance of what is actually being said. This is why it is very important for western countries like Australia to not view them as "all the same" (ignorance being another weakness in our society deliberately used against us). The older established 'Overseas Chinese' communities are very important allies.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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And this is where we need to be careful at deciphering between the CCP regime and ethnically Chinese people. The two are not one in the same.

On the ethno-nationalistic side of things, the CCP has a very deliberate strategy of blurring this line. They are essentially coercively trying to take ownership over 'Chineseness' for want of a better description. Therefore creating a situation where all Chinese history of past greatness, all Chinese culture and all people around the world of ethnically Chinese extraction are synonymous with and owned by the current regime. Which is a completely contrived fabrication of reality.
Indeed, much like Hitler and the calls back to Aryan mythology and supremacy.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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So Trump has the lowest approval ratings for an exiting president in history, but Malaria was not to be outdone!

 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,115
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The Leader the US, and World, needed. Cruelly defeated by the China Virus though less worthy Leaders around the world were able to grow in popularity during the crisis.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
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Brisbane
yeah you might be right. Despotic regimes have a lot in common. I'm not sure what is unique to fascism and what is not other than Hitler's fascist elite all being decked out in Hugo Boss designer wear....haha

Interesting read but perhaps presumes the reader to have a sounder background in or knowledge of economic and political theory than the likes of me to fully appreciate the author’s points.
What part's didn't make sense to you?

Shame the language in the article comes across as cultish, doused in paranoia and opinion which sets off my ‘lets run for it’ early warning alarm system. From point 1,

‘If you become directly ensnared in the state’s web, you will quickly discover that there are indeed no limits to what the state can do. This can happen boarding a flight, driving around in your hometown, or having your business run afoul of some government agency. In the end, you must obey or be caged like an animal or killed. In this way, no matter how much you may believe that you are free, all of us today are but one step away from Guantanamo.’

Seriously?

One minute you claim that the US is 1-2 elections away from an authoritarian US fascistic state and then are surprised at a claim that it is here now? I bet 12 months ago you would have thought it unlikely the state could lock you at home through threat of imprisonment (or if you resisted, death) for weeks-months on end?
 

TrialByVideo

HailBGale!
Mar 1, 2015
4,422
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Podcast from expat Jonathan Swan... make of it what you will.

Trump’s Last Stand: How much damage can a sitting president do in a day or a week or two months? In the first series of How It Happened, national political reporter Jonathan Swan reveals the inside story of Donald Trump’s last few months in office. The story starts with his COVID-19 recovery and ends with the insurrection at the Capitol.

 

Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
24,447
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so 74 million voted for fascism ?

The US has a bigger problem than we thought
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,386
433
What part's didn't make sense to you?

The problem is without having an proper understanding of economic theories and how they differ in their implementation and outcomes, how the government sustains economic life, how the tax system works, how the bureaucracy works etc I can’t know if what is being presented is true, accurate, debatable, biased or whatever. And so I can neither digest or argue as to the validity of his claims.

It might also be some things the author describes as fascist doesn’t feel fascist to me. Health care being regulated doesn’t feel fascist.

For people like me it would be good if the author could point to a country past or present where the alternate economic and political system he prefers did operate or is in operation and how their systems interact internally and with the rest of the world. Then I could compare.
Can you name one country?
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,017
14,792
The problem is without having an proper understanding of economic theories and how they differ in their implementation and outcomes, how the government sustains economic life, how the tax system works, how the bureaucracy works etc I can’t know if what is being presented is true, accurate, debatable, biased or whatever. And so I can neither digest or argue as to the validity of his claims.

It might also be some things the author describes as fascist doesn’t feel fascist to me. Health care being regulated doesn’t feel fascist.

For people like me it would be good if the author could point to a country past or present where the alternate economic and political system he prefers did operate or is in operation and how their systems interact internally and with the rest of the world. Then I could compare.
Can you name one country?

Did he really write regulated health care is a kind of fascism? that's cray cray

EDIT, just read it - the author has redefined "fascism" to suit their own purposes.
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,386
433
One minute you claim that the US is 1-2 elections away from an authoritarian US fascistic state and then are surprised at a claim that it is here now? I bet 12 months ago you would have thought it unlikely the state could lock you at home through threat of imprisonment (or if you resisted, death) for weeks-months on end?

Not surprised. Bemused at the cultish language. Often the final sentence of his points is a doozy. Seems unnecessary.
By the way, the author's claim ‘This nation, conceived in liberty, has been kidnapped by the fascist state’ might be contested by the native american population.

The US becoming a truly fascist state is possible. Democracies fall. It don’t think the US holds some mystical power that makes it immune to radical change and change for the worse. The police didn’t go out guns blazing at BLM protestors, the military didn’t take over the streets, the courts rejected Trumps efforts to over turn election results, and local election officials were able to push back Trumps request to ‘find votes’ but pretty serious cracks appeared and if Trump and his followers run a successful campaign of lies and deception over the next 8 years who knows how deranged his followers will become and where the disconnect from truth will lead. Maybe the police will go out guns blazing, maybe maybe bombs will go off etc etc

If presented with the pandemic scenario 12 months ago, 10 years ago, in 10 years I time I would completely support the state’s lockdown policy ...... unless I was a mortician perhaps. No overflowing morgues around here. All good.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,525
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Melbourne
That’s interesting. Does that make China communist or fascist?

Good question. Definitely not communist, but then again The Soviet Union was hardly communist either. More like substituting private property for state property, little difference really. China is certainly authoritarian and the nationalism has been ramped up under Xi. I still wouldn't say fascist. Panthera Tigris' comment that it is state organised crony capitalism is not far off the mark. The CCP attempting to meld their party as the personification of their country is something fascists did.

Did he really write regulated health care is a kind of fascism? that's cray cray

EDIT, just read it - the author has redefined "fascism" to suit their own purposes.

Yep, just looking at the quote Glantone put up they are attempting to define any state system as fascist. Now, I object to hierarchical power structures like the state as much as the next anarchist, but to lump all states in one category and call them all fascist, well, it is just silly posturing. Sort of reminds me of Maoists I met years ago who would spout ideological purity to an absurd degree. You do have to distinguish, clearly a state with representative democracy, such as Australia, is better than an authoritarian state, say like Pinochet's Chile.

The US becoming a truly fascist state is possible. Democracies fall. It don’t think the US holds some mystical power that makes it immune to radical change and change for the worse. The police didn’t go out guns blazing at BLM protestors, the military didn’t take over the streets, the courts rejected Trumps efforts to over turn election results, and local election officials were able to push back Trumps request to ‘find votes’ but pretty serious cracks appeared and if Trump and his followers run a successful campaign of lies and deception over the next 8 years who knows how deranged his followers will become and where the disconnect from truth will lead. Maybe the police will go out guns blazing, maybe maybe bombs will go off etc etc

There are some bad signs: it is a very divided country, there is a very sizeable part of the population who are unwilling to accept election results unless they go their way (didn't see them challenge the House, Senate etc outcomes which were part of the same election, plus, the coverage of some Trumpsters calling for an end to vote counting at the same time as others claimed counting must go on was laughable), violent (and likely armed) actions against members of congress, associating their movement with a strong leader represented as an outsider. Quite a few parallels there. Add into this that in many parts of the USA the local law is elected (sheriff, district attorney etc) and there is more than enough evidence to worry.

However, the USA has a long established government system and I would think is a lot more resilient than Weimar Germany, inter-war Italy or the Spanish Republic. The stacking of the Supreme Court is a worry but I retain hope, and do expect, that the USA will weather this crisis. I don't think it will weather it unharmed, and it is a dominant power which has seen its position in the world diminished, but I can't currently see a regime change to fascism or even authoritarianism.

DS