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Talking Politics

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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Yeah, but you need the massive ships to move the massive tanks (which are probably massive targets too) - in fact, I can't recall, but wasn't there an issue with trying to move those big tanks on any of the ships we have?

300-400 planes over 120 is a no brainer given the problems the F35 have anyway.

I reckon we could develop and make our own drones, then you just send 10 or more for every target you want to hit.

Why anyone would want to invade Australia if we were an armed neutral is beyond me, the cost in people, machinery, equipment etc would be way way too high.

DS
Added to that. To then protect those massive amphibious assault ships - which are targets, as you rightly point out - we need expensive, heavily armed and sophisticated air warfare destroyers which are facing massive cost blowouts and delayed delivery. So it’s a self fulfilling spiral and money pit for capabilities we probably don't need.

Not sure I'm a fan of the nuclear subs deal. Pleasing to see the dud deal that was torn up. But not sure the alternative is that much better, albeit in different ways. How many of these 'Rolls-Royce' subs are we going to be able to afford? Is it around only eight? So we are getting a fleet of eight Rolls-Royces, that we cannot service ourselves. When we probably needed 24-32 Toyotas we could service with much less outside assistance. That is the analogy I read today. Not only that. The first of these subs (only the first) will not be delivered for nearly 20 years! Put into context. Not only do youngsters currently at prime serving age never even see these in their potential window of service. Possibly neither do my children and their peers, who are only in early Primary School!

But this goes back to the overarching strategy. The eight nuclear 'Rolls-Royces' are designed to simply plug into the US military system as an ancillary force. And it virtually makes impossible, any independent management of the programme. It intertwines us even more closely to the US for the best part of the next century. That is a massive bet to place. That the US will be forthrightly in our region for the next century. That the US electorate is willing to 1) spend astronomical amounts and 2) Sacrifice their own safety for the sake of the likes of Taiwan, Australia, South Korea and Japan. Or that they will materially be capable of doing so 30, 40, 50 years down the track. Personally, I think that the US resolve on that is already wavering and will continue to. It was only less than a year ago that we got a taste of what a more isolationist, neurotic, unpredictable US could look like. In less than a year, we have forgotten. As if this was an anomaly and can't happen again. Such short sightedness.

Certainly South Korea isn't making that bet. They are taking a different path. Working hard to develop their own independent ballistic missiles and own independent nuclear submarine programme. Not saying that we need to develop the exact same capabilities as South Korea. But we should be reading these same signals that they are and moving towards a more self reliant defence posture. Like I said earlier. That doesn't come cheap. But sometimes optimum outcomes don't.
 
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artball

labels are for canned food
Jul 30, 2013
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talk of submarine deals with the world like it is ? sure, why not ?
more U.S military coming to stay with 'the pals from down under' sure, why not ?
War is always good for business and with Afghanistan cooked, sure, why not ?

FFS
 

TT33

Yellow & Black Member
Feb 17, 2004
6,865
5,899
Melbourne
How much are these nuclear subs going to cost us & what will the financial penalty from France for cancelling the existing (dumb) contract.

Yep the Libs are wonderful financial managers.

Sort of makes the cost of cancelling East West Link look miniscule. (A contract which by the way should NOT have been signed when it was) Another LNP master stroke.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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Morrisons declaration of a 'forever partnership' is pretty insulting to everyones intelligence.

If Trump got back in in a couple of years, which is entirely plausible,

it'd be a shorter forever than stacky and Conti's matching tattoos
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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How much are these nuclear subs going to cost us & what will the financial penalty from France for cancelling the existing (dumb) contract.

Yep the Libs are wonderful financial managers.

Sort of makes the cost of cancelling East West Link look miniscule. (A contract which by the way should NOT have been signed when it was) Another LNP master stroke.
I know there is not much love for Tony Abbott (probably an understatement). But he was actually the one in the Liberal Party who was a very strong advocate for what was the best bang for buck, efficient and effective solution. That was to purchase off the shelf, the Japanese Soryu class diesel electric submarines. A very proven and solidly performing vessel that came at a far better price tag. And the first vessel probably could have been close to rolling off the production line now.

The deal was as good as done. Then there was a bun fight within the Liberal party room that this solution wasn't providing enough local content in SA electorates. Poodle Pyne (and friends) essentially revolted. Some believe this was one of the key events that weakened Tony Abbott's position in the party and contributed to them dumping him as leader.

Plus there was a complaint that these subs (like pretty much all conventional subs) wouldn't have the range to get from Perth to the Taiwan Strait. If our military strategy was armed neutrality and sea denial, we could have perhaps purchased two dozen to low thirties of these vessels and had them patrolling Australian and neighbouring waters in significant numbers. Do our submarines really need to be able to get to Taiwan is the critical question?

It's just riddled with errors through the whole process. Disjointed and short sighted strategic aims. Cynical politicking, rather than best outcomes. Just total incompetence.


 
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TT33

Yellow & Black Member
Feb 17, 2004
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I know there is not much love for Tony Abbott (probably an understatement). But he was actually the one in the Liberal Party who was a very strong advocate for what was the best bang for buck, efficient and effective solution. That was to purchase off the shelf, the Japanese Soryu class diesel electric submarines. A very proven and solidly performing vessel that came at a far better price tag. And the first vessel probably could have been close to rolling off the production line now.

There was then a bun fight within the Liberal party room that this solution wasn't providing enough local content in SA electorates. Poodle Pyne (and friends) nearly revolted. Some believe this was one of the key events that weakened Tony Abbott's position in the party and contributed to them dumping as leader.

Plus there was a complaint that these subs (like pretty much all conventional subs) wouldn't have the range to get from Perth to the Taiwan Strait. If our military strategy was armed neutrality and sea denial, we could have perhaps purchased two dozen to low thirties of these vessels and had them patrolling Australian and neighbouring waters in significant numbers. Do our submarines really need to be able to get to Taiwan is the critical question?

It's just riddled with errors through the whole process. Disjointed and short sighted strategic aims. Cynical politicking, rather than best outcomes. Just total incompetence.



Unfortunately that's the Hallmark of the Libs over the last 15- 20 odd years. It's not what's best for Australia, it's what's best for mates etc.

This current lot are a total liability.
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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How good's diplomacy?

From the French point of view. I can see why they would not just be angered. But more totally baffled.

Australia has turned itself in knots wanting Submarines that have capabilities well beyond most conventional subs. Maybe beyond what is actually possible for a conventional sub technology. Hence one reason our submarine procurement usually is so high risk and plagued with problems.

The French bend over backwards to design a conventional sub, that is pretty much a converted version of one of their nuclear sub. A very ambitious (perhaps over ambitious) prospect. Hence the astronomical cost. Then Australia turns around and says. Yeah after all of that we will buy nuclear subs.

French would be thinking. Why didn’t you just ask for that in the first place? I wonder if a) the French nuclear sub would have been suitable, b) if they would be willing to export that technology and c) how the cost and performance would compare to the US version we are buying.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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From the French point of view. I can see why they would not just be angered. But more totally baffled.

Australia has turned itself in knots wanting Submarines that have capabilities well beyond most conventional subs. Maybe beyond what is actually possible for a conventional sub technology. Hence one reason our submarine procurement usually is so high risk and plagued with problems.

The French bend over backwards to design a conventional sub, that is pretty much a converted version of one of their nuclear sub. A very ambitious (perhaps over ambitious) prospect. Hence the astronomical cost. Then Australia turns around and says. Yeah after all of that we will buy nuclear subs.

French would be thinking. Why didn’t you just ask for that in the first place? I wonder if a) the French nuclear sub would have been suitable, b) if they would be willing to export that technology and c) how the cost and performance would compare to the US version we are buying.


Im just speaking from a hunch,

but I reckon we were getting completely bent over by the French.

an Australian senator (cant recall who) was devoting themselves just to get a look at the contract,

and Australian and French lawyers devoted themselves, probably at $5k/hr,

to not letting him see it.

costs went from $50b to $90b before they even discussed the style of bathroom taps and periscope finish.

screams super-dodgy.

without speaking to the new deal,

I think we might have dodged a torpedo on this one.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,142
14,981
Im just speaking from a hunch,

but I reckon we were getting completely bent over by the French.

an Australian senator (cant recall who) was devoting themselves just to get a look at the contract,

and Australian and French lawyers devoted themselves, probably at $5k/hr,

to not letting him see it.

costs went from $50b to $90b before they even discussed the style of bathroom taps and periscope finish.

screams super-dodgy.

without speaking to the new deal,

I think we might have dodged a torpedo on this one.

Sounds like standard procedure for any military contract.
 
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jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
33,856
12,108
Melbourne
Im just speaking from a hunch,

but I reckon we were getting completely bent over by the French.

an Australian senator (cant recall who) was devoting themselves just to get a look at the contract,

and Australian and French lawyers devoted themselves, probably at $5k/hr,

to not letting him see it.

costs went from $50b to $90b before they even discussed the style of bathroom taps and periscope finish.

screams super-dodgy.

without speaking to the new deal,

I think we might have dodged a torpedo on this one.
The French r miles over budget & late which doesn't seem to be getting reported too much. Not sure why we need high tech submarines.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,318
19,889
The Libs have been standing on a few toes lately.
The first country to call out Huawei and ban there 5G rollout.
The first country to call for an enquiry into Covid.
They upset Japan and Germany when they chose France to build the new submarines.
They then pulled the rug out from France without even telling them.
Diplomacy is not one Morrison's strong suits, you'd think with his marketing background he'd be pretty good at getting on the phone.
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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Im just speaking from a hunch,

but I reckon we were getting completely bent over by the French.

an Australian senator (cant recall who) was devoting themselves just to get a look at the contract,

and Australian and French lawyers devoted themselves, probably at $5k/hr,

to not letting him see it.

costs went from $50b to $90b before they even discussed the style of bathroom taps and periscope finish.

screams super-dodgy.

without speaking to the new deal,

I think we might have dodged a torpedo on this one.
I wonder whether the French company was even confident it could deliver. I had read that what the ADF was asking for was possibly even beyond the capability of conventional submarine technology. So like you say, perhaps dodged a bullet.

As I said earlier. I’m pleased that we got out of what looked to be a dangerously dud deal. But at the same time. I’m not sure what we are going into is the best outcome for the nation either. But for different reasons.
 
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K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
5,245
1,004
I wonder whether the French company was even confident it could deliver. I had read that what the ADF was asking for was possibly even beyond the capability of conventional submarine technology. So like you say, perhaps dodged a bullet.

As I said earlier. I’m pleased that we got out of what looked to be a dangerously dud deal. But at the same time. I’m not sure what we are going into is the best outcome for the nation either. But for different reasons.
IMO should have gone with the Japanese from the start.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,172
19,042
Dutton is defence minister now isn't he? He would have had a big say in this. No surprise it's been handled with no diplomatic grace.

As for the French, *smile* em. Still haven't forgiven them for their nuclear tests on Mururoa Atoll
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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IMO should have gone with the Japanese from the start.
Yes. I stated similar in an earlier post. It was the best bang for buck, effective solution. Don’t get me wrong. Not an enormous amount of love for Abbott. But he pretty much had the deal done until Poodle Pyne and friends revolted at the lack of SA content.
 
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