Kane Cornes | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Kane Cornes

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,666
11,713
There's a lot of playing the man and not the ball here and dismissing the opinion because of who said it which is a shame for the sake of debate.

I get that Cornes is from the Hutchy school of journalism which is to be deliberately incendiary and that pushes buttons, but I also wonder whether the response is an element of being a bit uneasy that there's a chance he is right.

In preseason @bullus_hit wrote some of the most insightful posts I've seen. As I said at the time I've sat in some actual list management meetings and the quality of the discussion was no different. In my much less eloquent summary, BH's position was we should be addressing the issues with our game to keep us in contention without sacrificing so heavily at the draft.

Address clearances with a player like Tom Mitchell and by strengthening the ruck division with Brodie Grundy, both a much cheaper trade costs, and then still be able to access quality picks.

After reading those insights it was the first time I felt uneasy about the direction we were taking and after seeing how prophetic BH's opinions were around Grundy and Gawn vs us (albeit in one scratch match), I'm slightly more uneasy now. Go back and read the trade thread if you don't believe me, what he said is absolutely spot on in every detail. (again from one scratchy) Not panicking by any means but certainly a little worried.

So while Cornes' style may be flamboyant and he might use haymakers instead of jabs when making a point, to dismiss the crux of what he is saying as being personally based or as a result of some other agenda is too simplistic, because at least one highly intelligent and very measured deep thinker about the game share some of those concerns.
the issue isnt that Cornes wrote it, tho i am sure it helps fire people up, it is that what he is saying is either wrong, such as how many top30 picks we had in 2021, lazy, such as comparing our strategy to the hawks when they are vastly different, or an opinion dressed as fact- such as his view on Cotchin.
Yes, everything could fall apart for us this year, but the same could be said for any club.

it is a rubbish article for someone who I assume was paid to write it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users

snags

Tiger Superstar
Oct 28, 2005
1,715
2,045
There's a lot of playing the man and not the ball here and dismissing the opinion because of who said it which is a shame for the sake of debate.

I get that Cornes is from the Hutchy school of journalism which is to be deliberately incendiary and that pushes buttons, but I also wonder whether the response is an element of being a bit uneasy that there's a chance he is right.

In preseason @bullus_hit wrote some of the most insightful posts I've seen. As I said at the time I've sat in some actual list management meetings and the quality of the discussion was no different. In my much less eloquent summary, BH's position was we should be addressing the issues with our game to keep us in contention without sacrificing so heavily at the draft.

Address clearances with a player like Tom Mitchell and by strengthening the ruck division with Brodie Grundy, both a much cheaper trade costs, and then still be able to access quality picks.

After reading those insights it was the first time I felt uneasy about the direction we were taking and after seeing how prophetic BH's opinions were around Grundy and Gawn vs us (albeit in one scratch match), I'm slightly more uneasy now. Go back and read the trade thread if you don't believe me, what he said is absolutely spot on in every detail. (again from one scratchy) Not panicking by any means but certainly a little worried.

So while Cornes' style may be flamboyant and he might use haymakers instead of jabs when making a point, to dismiss the crux of what he is saying as being personally based or as a result of some other agenda is too simplistic, because at least one highly intelligent and very measured deep thinker about the game share some of those concerns.
Cheaper options are Mitchell 30 and Grundy 29 but that could also be considered a short term game. Looking at 2022 trades in isolation it's a fair investment for 2 mids in their prime but if you balance it over 2 trade years where we took 5 kids in the top 30 it becomes more balanced and could be argued a better long term strategy than patching with blokes approaching their used by. Proof is in the pudding and time will tell how far our 2 primes and last year's crop shifts the needle compared to the guys you mentioned at their new homes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,525
17,883
Melbourne
Don't know why you are all giving him so much oxygen.

It is a click bait article looking for a response and look at the response, he has got what he wants.

We get The Age delivered and I certainly haven't bothered to read the article.

Go through the list of any team and you could poke great holes in it. Maybe if we didn't have the salary cap and draft some rich teams could put together a list with no holes, wouldn't make for much of a competition though.

We all know there are issues. Ruck is an issue but the reality of the question around the importance of rucks isn't so different from a lot of other positions on the ground. They are important when you go up against a team with an exceptional ruck, less important otherwise. Yes, Melbourne won a flag with a stand-out ruck, but Geelong didn't have one, we won 3 with Nank, and Grundy wasn't enough to tip the scales against West Coast sans Natinui.

Ageing premiership stars who are not as good as they once were . . . well that's unprecedented, never been seen before! I'm sure it is a problem every club wouldn't mind having, because if you have ageing premiership stars, especially ageing multiple premiership stars, it means you have won premierships recently. I'll take that problem any day.

Tarranto and Hopper address a clear need. Maybe we should have looked harder at getting Grundy as our ruck stocks are not brilliant. Then again, if Soldo could get back to his best and Ryan develops we could already have the solution at the club. But you don't pass on a deal like getting 2 excellent midfielders in 1 trade period lightly. If we aren't competitive I don't think it will be because we picked up 2 quality mids in their mid 20s.

Everybody knows that staying near the top, contending after a period of success, is damned near impossible. I reckon were having a fair crack at trying to do this with young players coming in and some good trading. Not guaranteed to work, nothing is, but it's worth trying.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 15 users

cagedtiger

Be Feared
Nov 19, 2004
1,267
79
Sydney
The bottom of the cycle is likely to be longer and deeper on the path we've taken if it goes wrong, compared to if we went on a rejuvenation path this year.

We've taken the path of Hawthorn and Geelong in trying to top up and maintain contention without too great a fall.

Geelong's result have been spectacularly successful and Hawthorn's completely awful. We could end up anywhere on that scale as well.
Did not Richmond go deep into the National draft in 2021 and select 5 juniors? Last time I looked 2021 draft was, well not much more than 12 months ago. You are cherry picking the 2022 year as if is indicative of previous years to suit an argument. Tactic sound familiar? If not, read name of title of this thread.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Carter

Tiger Legend
Nov 14, 2012
9,348
7,515
Disagree- over a period of 5-6 years we’ve been very balanced between regenerating via the draft and bringing in mature players. Nothing like hawthorn and Geelong model at all who both have overwhelmingly been on the bringing in the ready made players philosophy.

Chalk and cheese

This.

We are still contending because of Blair Hartley, Damien Hardwick, Benny Gale and a united board, not based on another club’s blueprint.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Quickdraw

End of the drought
Jun 8, 2013
2,832
4,241
There's a lot of playing the man and not the ball here
Spot on, TBR.
Cornes probably takes more shots at Dimma & Cotch than at anyone else in football. It sounds like he has a deep seated hatred of all things Richmond. He is the worst kind of media nob that trolls for attention (clicks).

The best thing Tiger supporters can do is turn off any radio or TV station that this d!ck is on, and don't bother with his articles. He is not providing incitful opinion, he is looking to create attention and get a rise out of us.

I feel toward him as he feels toward Richmond :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

kyuss

Tiger Superstar
May 13, 2012
1,031
1,138
I think the comparison is not about the nuances of the individual approaches but the overall philosophy of being able to maintain a position as a contender by adding players to your list as you go, rather than the conventional method of dropping back in the pack and drafting before climbing again.

Hawthorn tried and stuffed it up, Geelong has done it differently and been a spectacular success, now we are doing it differently again and time will tell.
Though I think our hope is to contend this year, I completely disagree that it was an all chips on the table decision to draft the two GWS boys. The drafting of these two was definitely with an eye towards the future. What happens without these two if Dion, Dustin, and Cotch all retire in the next two years? You need some seasoned bodies otherwise you’re just throwing young blokes to the wolves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
25,573
11,452
No. I'm a Richmond member. Are you?



There's no way we brought them in for mid/long term success primarily. We brought them in to try and contend again now and in the next couple of years and we will worry about the long term as we go.
Not sure you're totally right here BTR. There's obviously a factor in strengthening our mid field with a view to contending immediately. But also with the age demographic of our list there's also a strong need to have a couple of quality experienced blokes to provide leadership and professionalism to the developing youngsters in future years. No Shedda, Lamblett, Cadds. Cotch, Jaaack, Fish, Grub, Dusty, Prestygiaocomo getting fairly long in the tooth n transitioning out sooner than later. There'd be a strong need to have blokes like Tarantino n grassy grassy Grasshopper filling that core experienced leadership area.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
25,573
11,452
Got me a feeling none of the 18 clubs really knows what works best for premiership glory or long term sustained success..

Appears that the Moggies have worked out a bloody good system that has them in contention year on year with four flags over the last twenty years and who knows what's to come in the next few.
Swannies, Hawks n Tiges seem to operate to a similar system with only the Hawks so far dropping into a massive rebuilding hole. Tiges n Swannies more a dip n bounce during their eras.

Clubs that go the full rebuild through bottoming out n hoovering the draft seem to spend a hell of a long time mired in mediocrity n potential. #Lolnorf, Bloosers, St Kiddenme, Crowbaits, with Brisvegas so far the only rebuild club that have elevated to the contender status.
Gee Whizz n the Mould Coast as start up clubs obviously contend as ultimate bottom out n hoover the draft superstars with hugely differing results. Mould coast pretty much stagnated in mediocrity, while Gee Whizz have at least flashed n burned.

Frockers, Pordadalayde, Colonwood, Weagles, Woofers, Smelbourne have to some degree flashed n burned hovering around the fringes of finals at times. Three have been premiers with so far no era to lock into and three still wishfull dreaming.

Only thing that's an absolute guarantee regardless of how clubs go about their systems is that you're a long time mired in the hole of mediocrity if you don't get a hell of a lot of things right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
21,919
26,433
Melbourne
I think the comparison is not about the nuances of the individual approaches but the overall philosophy of being able to maintain a position as a contender by adding players to your list as you go, rather than the conventional method of dropping back in the pack and drafting before climbing again.

Hawthorn tried and stuffed it up, Geelong has done it differently and been a spectacular success, now we are doing it differently again and time will tell.
Hawthorn traded out senior players, like Melbourne and others before them. Maybe you could argue it eventually paid off for Melbourne, but it took over a decade anyway. Geelong didn't trade out ageing players, so not sure why you're suggesting we should have.

The bit about trading out of the early roubds of the draft: early draft picks just increase your chances of bringing in goid players, they don't guarantee it. Kornes states "we" don't know the quality of our young players, but he means he doesn't. I'd say "we" know and are pretty happy with the quality of MoJu, Ryan, Juddy, Banks, Brown, as well as the two he's heard of, Sonz and Godcus.

I reckon our developing list is pretty talented, it's just missing the next Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt. You need top 3 picks for the first two and luck that the idiots picking in front of you go for Kreuzer, Scully or Armitage for all three. Or you bring them in via trade and free agency, a la Lynch and Taranto.

As others have shown, we've invested way more in the draft than Hawthorn did, so it's lazy and ignorant to say we've taken the same path as them. We've clearly followed a similar strategy to Geelong: keep bringing in young talent while trading for needs.

A lot still needs to go right. For everything Geelong has done right and allvthe favours bestowed upon them, they still popped the champagne corks with relief when their nemesis was cheated out of last year's finals.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 6 users

spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
21,919
26,433
Melbourne
Got me a feeling none of the 18 clubs really knows what works best for premiership glory or long term sustained success..

Appears that the Moggies have worked out a bloody good system that has them in contention year on year with four flags over the last twenty years and who knows what's to come in the next few.
Swannies, Hawks n Tiges seem to operate to a similar system with only the Hawks so far dropping into a massive rebuilding hole. Tiges n Swannies more a dip n bounce during their eras.

Clubs that go the full rebuild through bottoming out n hoovering the draft seem to spend a hell of a long time mired in mediocrity n potential. #Lolnorf, Bloosers, St Kiddenme, Crowbaits, with Brisvegas so far the only rebuild club that have elevated to the contender status.
Gee Whizz n the Mould Coast as start up clubs obviously contend as ultimate bottom out n hoover the draft superstars with hugely differing results. Mould coast pretty much stagnated in mediocrity, while Gee Whizz have at least flashed n burned.

Frockers, Pordadalayde, Colonwood, Weagles, Woofers, Smelbourne have to some degree flashed n burned hovering around the fringes of finals at times. Three have been premiers with so far no era to lock into and three still wishfull dreaming.

Only thing that's an absolute guarantee regardless of how clubs go about their systems is that you're a long time mired in the hole of mediocrity if you don't get a hell of a lot of things right.
Geelong also has the greatest home ground advantage in the league, Maso. They start on 7 wins every year, then get to play another 10 games at neutral venues. They don't play 'home' games at Marvel against Marvel tenants or interstate minnows. They have the point of difference of being able to sell lifestyle to homesick country boys, which helped them snag Dangerfield, Cameron, Henry and others for unders. They get to keep all the profits fron their taxpayer funded bowling alley because they're in marginal state and federal electorates.
Geelong is unique. Credit to them because all those advantages were once weaknesses that they turned into strengths, but it's not a level playing field.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users

Tass

Tiger Matchwinner
Mar 3, 2005
693
1,259
Geelong also has the greatest home ground advantage in the league, Maso. They start on 7 wins every year, then get to play another 10 games at neutral venues. They don't play 'home' games at Marvel against Marvel tenants or interstate minnows. They have the point of difference of being able to sell lifestyle to homesick country boys, which helped them snag Dangerfield, Cameron, Henry and others for unders. They get to keep all the profits fron their taxpayer funded bowling alley because they're in marginal state and federal electorates.
Geelong is unique. Credit to them because all those advantages were once weaknesses that they turned into strengths, but it's not a level playing field.

Spot on. It’s the biggest false narrative when the minions burst a blood vessel over their over the top adulation of Scott’s H & A record.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
Did not Richmond go deep into the National draft in 2021 and select 5 juniors? Last time I looked 2021 draft was, well not much more than 12 months ago. You are cherry picking the 2022 year as if is indicative of previous years to suit an argument. Tactic sound familiar? If not, read name of title of this thread.

Who said we didn't?

It doesn't change the fact that if we were doing a conventional rebuild we would have taken all the first round picks again this year, retired a couple of blokes and been content to slide out of the 8.

The point is we are trying to remain in contention indefinitely rather than rebuild, the micros of how we do that don't really matter, the question is whether the macro strategy is the right one.

There was a fork in the road last year and we went left. Cornes thinks we should have gone right. The answer will be in how long it takes us to reach the destination.

Got me a feeling none of the 18 clubs really knows what works best for premiership glory or long term sustained success..

Never a truer word has been spoken on this forum.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,156
19,624
There was a lot of, should we, or shouldn't we do the trade for Prestia. Without him Nank and Lynch we don't win 3 :cupgold:cupgold:cupgold

And without them we would probably still be rebuilding.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
Cornes probably takes more shots at Dimma & Cotch than at anyone else in football. It sounds like he has a deep seated hatred of all things Richmond.

Not surprisingly I don't go along with that. I think he calls it as he sees it in a very forthright way. Saying Cotchin should have retired doesn't mean he hates him, there are people on here who would happily have his babies that have asked the same question. You wouldn't really be thinking deeply about the game if you didn't ask it.

Hawthorn traded out senior players, like Melbourne and others before them. Maybe you could argue it eventually paid off for Melbourne, but it took over a decade anyway. Geelong didn't trade out ageing players, so not sure why you're suggesting we should have.

I'm not suggesting we should have done anything, just presenting the options. I have no clue what we should have done and I'm in the fortunate position of not having to put my balls on the line, I can just sit back and judge the results.

I'm hopeful we are on the right track and worried we might not be but that's as far as I go.

The link with Hawthorn and Geelong isn't on the individual steps, it's the philosophy. For a long time the accepted wisdom has been once your group peaks you cut the list and go to the draft to rebuild your core. Let's call that bus route A.

Hawthorn and Geelong came along and said stuff bus route A, we reckon if we take the B bus we can make a short cut that will get us to the destination much more quickly. We have done the same thing.

The fact Hawthorn sat in the front and Geelong in the back and we are in the middle, or that one of them changed buses a station before everyone else doesn't matter, we are all trying to achieve the same result in a way that is outside the previously accepted way to get to the final stop.

Hawthorn is currently at a bus stop in the middle of nowhere, trying to read the map and work out the way back, Geelong made it to the final stop and stayed there longer than most and we have just left the station. Time will tell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user