Sydney Stack | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Sydney Stack

tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
23,483
11,633
Wow just wow.

So Twiggy (who by the way isn't the MD so doesn't make the decisions on day to day running of FMG, thats Elizabeth Gaines) went through this court case to deprive them of "any money".

Thats not even the truth behind this. There are always 2 sides to a story, and you have promoted the one you want. The reality is that the local people wanted free cash, and due to the position that Roebourne is in (as you have so elequently put it) offered something different to pure money.

"FMG was looking to expand quickly and began negotiating a land-use agreement with YAC in March 2008 to speed-up its development.

YAC demanded a 5 per cent cut of future royalties — equivalent to what the WA State Government receives — before it revised down to 0.5 per cent, which it claims is "industry standard."

But FMG ultimately rejected the offer, offering a smaller payout and an education and employment package worth millions.

"We remain open to negotiating a Land Access Agreement to the benefit of all Yindjibarndi people on similar terms to the agreements Fortescue has in place with other Native Title groups in the region," The FMG chief said.

"We currently have seven agreements in operation, delivering Native Title royalties as well as heritage management, training, employment and business opportunities.

"These agreements provide significant economic and social benefits to the relevant communities."


But believe the rubbish that you do then. You are as extreme in your views (from the other side) as Lee is but you don't even seem to realise that you are.

Just for your info, in the 2016 census, Roebournes population was 66% between the ages of 20-65 (ie. working age) compared to 61% in WA. Of those that were employed they were at 28% compared to WA average of 77%.

Its been proven in the past that throwing money at something with no plan in place doesn't work to change demographics, so the offer of reduced "royalties" and more money invested in education and jobs would have most likely had a much bigger long term benefit for Roebourne, but of course, keep believing what you want to.
With the greatest of respect Mr poshman, you have no idea what you're talking about.
 

eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,434
25,778
With the greatest of respect Mr poshman, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I was hoping snake (Brief CV: Masters degree interpreting Native Title Act., 20 years negotiating, writing and interpreting indigenous/mining agreements, loves Stackman)

would take that baton.

over and out take 2, ezt

*disclosure: snake doesn't own any FMG shares.
 
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King Kong

Tiger Legend
Aug 26, 2016
6,127
5,321
I was hoping snake (Brief CV: Masters degree interpreting Native Title Act., 20 years negotiating, writing and interpreting indigenous/mining agreements, loves Stackman)

would take that baton.

over and out take 2, ezt

*disclosure: snake doesn't own any FMG shares.
I've been to Roeburn and to suggest that is either Twiggy's making or his responsibility to fix is mischievous.

That place has been an issue for a lot longer than FMG existed and their is no easy solution. Money is unlikely to fix anything.
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
17,852
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1. wow alright. so you read the annual report? funnily enough, a panel of high court judges pretty much agreed with my take, rather than FMG's barrage of barristers.

2. have you ever been to Roeburn or talked meaningfully to an indigenous Australian?

3. I fully realise what I am alright, and If my views moderate to less than the extreme opposite of L2's views, then be sure to let me know and I'll smash every mirror in my house and drink myself rapidly to death.

4. I love Sydney Stack


I would appreciate a response to point 2 if you could take the time,

over and out

EZT

1 - Understand what the high court said and I'm comfortable with what they said. FMG probably did push too far with the high court appeal, but I was commenting on your statements that FMG didn't want to pay them anything, which was incorrect. FMG offered a package of smaller royalty, investment in training / education and jobs which was turned down. The point that Twiggy was making (and he probably made it badly) was he didn't want to just provide cash into the area, but wanted to provide something targeted at improving their quality of life. Its actually in FMG's interests to do this too, its far cheaper to use local labour than it is to use FIFO, so its in everyones interests to get more training / education / up skilling but this was turned down

2 - No I've never been to Roebourne and only know about the area from the net and from the census, so understand that I may not have an in depth understanding of the local area, though what they are screaming out for is more employment (clearly from the high level of unemployed working age people). In order to gain that employment they need education and training, the census also shows how weak their levels of education are. I'm fully of the belief that ways out of poverty should be through education, which helps to lead to higher levels of employment and then the moneyflow can start to roll through local communities. Just throwing money without the underlying investment in education / training will do very little and maintain low levels of employment in these localised areas. That was my point, the offer by FMG maybe needed tweaking with higher overall investment but was the right type of package to be offering the local people IMO.

3 - I'd never condone or promote violence to yourself or anybody else (and I'm not sure why you swung immediately towards that when your views are challenged). I was merely commenting that extreme views either way are not great.

You've made numerous comments in this thread and others about what is provided by miners and what they do for local aboriginal areas, and I don't agree with any of those views hence my comments.
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
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I've been to Roeburn and to suggest that is either Twiggy's making or his responsibility to fix is mischievous.

That place has been an issue for a lot longer than FMG existed and their is no easy solution. Money is unlikely to fix anything.

and thats exactly my point and I believe Twiggys (albeit badly worded). There is little point throwing money at a problem, without engaging the local population in re-training and education.

This is an example of investment in localised companies in Roebourne and what they can result in. Further employment and business opportunities and what I believe FMG's counter offer of a package rather than a straight royalty that was initially put on the table.

 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,434
25,778
1 - Understand what the high court said and I'm comfortable with what they said. FMG probably did push too far with the high court appeal, but I was commenting on your statements that FMG didn't want to pay them anything, which was incorrect. FMG offered a package of smaller royalty, investment in training / education and jobs which was turned down. The point that Twiggy was making (and he probably made it badly) was he didn't want to just provide cash into the area, but wanted to provide something targeted at improving their quality of life. Its actually in FMG's interests to do this too, its far cheaper to use local labour than it is to use FIFO, so its in everyones interests to get more training / education / up skilling but this was turned down

2 - No I've never been to Roebourne and only know about the area from the net and from the census, so understand that I may not have an in depth understanding of the local area, though what they are screaming out for is more employment (clearly from the high level of unemployed working age people). In order to gain that employment they need education and training, the census also shows how weak their levels of education are. I'm fully of the belief that ways out of poverty should be through education, which helps to lead to higher levels of employment and then the moneyflow can start to roll through local communities. Just throwing money without the underlying investment in education / training will do very little and maintain low levels of employment in these localised areas. That was my point, the offer by FMG maybe needed tweaking with higher overall investment but was the right type of package to be offering the local people IMO.

3 - I'd never condone or promote violence to yourself or anybody else (and I'm not sure why you swung immediately towards that when your views are challenged). I was merely commenting that extreme views either way are not great.

You've made numerous comments in this thread and others about what is provided by miners and what they do for local aboriginal areas, and I don't agree with any of those views hence my comments.

ok reasonable reply deserves a reasonable reply.

1, Twiggy, you, or me, are not qualified or entitled to determine what an aboriginal persons quality of life is, let alone prescribe how it should be improved.

2. With respect, you cant understand Roeburn off the internet. I know I often use language in an unconventional fashion, but I meant what I said about white policy destroying Roeburn. The Roeburn prison is the regional prison for the Pilbara, choc-a-block with aboriginal people from a huge area or dispirit cultural and language groups. Often, people get sent there for doing stuff that mean they aren't welcome back in their community. Pedophilia for example. So when they get out of jail, the worst offenders often stay in Roeburn. You can imagine what that does to a community? and Im sure you can understand what that does to the (white) perception of that community? and im sure you can see, that is through absolutely no fault of the Roeburn community? and yet Twiggy couldn't see this not so nuanced issue : he declared the place so culturally bankrupt (der) as to unworthy of any reasonable funding or self-determination of those funds.

3. Clearly I was being hyperbolic. But the intent and context stand. I wish to occupy a position on race as far from L2 as I possibly can. I agree often extreme views are ugly, but you will notice im mainly extreme on 3.1 Richmond FC and 3.2. Race; in particularly advocating justice and equality for indigenous Australians. I will continue to occupy that extreme space for as long as the disadvantage is extreme, which it is by every, single, measure


Big business, including miners, can get environmental and social stuff right. Not many do, but they can. I personally find Andrew Forest duplicitous and self-serving. I think his challenge to Native Title was downright abhorrent. Its fine that you dont and that you are happy with your FMG investment. I have no problem whatsoever with that incongruence of viewpoints.

Finally, I think its good we have these discussions of race in Australia and I think Stackman would approve of it being conducted in his name. I suspect hes a smart and proud young man and I really hope he can fulfil his promise as a footballer and a leader for his community. They really need him.

Ezt.
 
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Dont Argue

Tiger Legend
Jun 26, 2018
5,777
12,388
I was hoping snake (Brief CV: Masters degree interpreting Native Title Act., 20 years negotiating, writing and interpreting indigenous/mining agreements, loves Stackman)

would take that baton.

over and out take 2, ezt

*disclosure: snake doesn't own any FMG shares.
Sounds like Tigersnake should have represented Sydney instead of that bush lawyer Dennis Denuto
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,434
25,778
1. I've been to Roeburn and to suggest that is either Twiggy's making or his responsibility to fix is mischievous.

2. That place has been an issue for a lot longer than FMG existed and their is no easy solution. Money is unlikely to fix anything.

1. that was never suggested. it was suggested that Twiggy show due respect to the Traditional Owners where he digs up Iron Ore. Oh, and adhere to the law.

2. Agree there is no easy solution but a) money helps alleviate disadvantage a lot b) Native Title was designed to help alleviate disadvantage - by challenging it in the High Court, FMG were seeking to aggressively disadvantage the Yindgibandi further.

3. pretty sure Stackman would agree with me
 
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LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
33,186
11,546
Melbourne
I wish to occupy a position on race as far from L2 as I possibly can.
If I'm a racist as you keep insisting then I'm a very *smile* poor one. I would not and have not refused assistance to anyone on the basis of race/skin colour/nationality/religion or anything else, e.g. I recently paid an Indian cricketer's annual subs on the quiet when I heard he was struggling financially, and I barely know the guy.

You don't know nearly as much as you think.
 
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zippadeee

Tiger Legend
Oct 8, 2004
39,639
15,415
Only if the club forced him to stay in Victoria.
He could've robbed a bank.
Kidnapped Kylie Minogue and then hijacked a tram.
And he still would've got 3 weeks in jail in Victoria.
 
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tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,154
19,623
ok reasonable reply deserves a reasonable reply.

1, Twiggy, you, or me, are not qualified or entitled to determine what an aboriginal persons quality of life is, let alone prescribe how it should be improved.

2. With respect, you cant understand Roeburn off the internet. I know I often use language in an unconventional fashion, but I meant what I said about white policy destroying Roeburn. The Roeburn prison is the regional prison for the Pilbara, choc-a-block with aboriginal people from a huge area or dispirit cultural and language groups. Often, people get sent there for doing stuff that mean they aren't welcome back in their community. Pedophilia for example. So when they get out of jail, the worst offenders often stay in Roeburn. You can imagine what that does to a community? and Im sure you can understand what that does to the (white) perception of that community? and im sure you can see, that is through absolutely no fault of the Roeburn community? and yet Twiggy couldn't see this not so nuanced issue : he declared the place so culturally bankrupt (der) as to unworthy of any reasonable funding or self-determination of those funds.

3. Clearly I was being hyperbolic. But the intent and context stand. I wish to occupy a position on race as far from L2 as I possibly can. I agree often extreme views are ugly, but you will notice im mainly extreme on 3.1 Richmond FC and 3.2. Race; in particularly advocating justice and equality for indigenous Australians. I will continue to occupy that extreme space for as long as the disadvantage is extreme, which it is by every, single, measure


Big business, including miners, can get environmental and social stuff right. Not many do, but they can. I personally find Andrew Forest duplicitous and self-serving. I think his challenge to Native Title was downright abhorrent. Its fine that you dont and that you are happy with your FMG investment. I have no problem whatsoever with that incongruence of viewpoints.

Finally, I think its good we have these discussions of race in Australia and I think Stackman would approve of it being conducted in his name. I suspect hes a smart and proud young man and I really hope he can fulfil his promise as a footballer and a leader for his community. They really need him.

Ezt.
easy, the tragedy of it all is that Roebourne is/was no worse than many other towns.
I've been to Roebourne many times, drank at the Vic Hotel, (it's closed now) used to play cricket there, one of the games was the hottest I've ever been in my life. I swear to god the beers after the game in the club at the ground were the nicest I've ever had in my life.
The closing of the hotel has been good thing for the town, it's been done up and is a grand old building, it's a good little town.
The Roebourne races, now isn't that a day out, as was the Wittenoom races.:blowingup

I really hope that Syd is given another chance at Tigerland, Marlion will put his arm around him.
Covid has been a terrible thing for everyone, and I reckon it was especially so for Syd. An involvement with The Korin Gamadji Institute would be a good thing for him.

CARN THE TIGES!!!!
 
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fastin bulbous

Tiger Champion
Mar 30, 2010
4,121
4,219
Darwin
Roebourne certainly is looked very sad back in 2018
Early 80’s it was a hell hole. It was created as a ‘settlement’ for aboriginal people ie those who had been stolen for cheap labor or disenfranchised through systematic abuse. So whiteys like me didn’t have to come across them in port headland etc. I was 6 and knew how awful the conditions there were just from hearing my parents talk.
 
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tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,154
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Early 80’s it was a hell hole. It was created as a ‘settlement’ for aboriginal people ie those who had been stolen for cheap labor or disenfranchised through systematic abuse. So whiteys like me didn’t have to come across them in port headland etc. I was 6 and knew how awful the conditions there were just from hearing my parents talk.
The death in police custody of John Pat at Roebourne was a terrible thing fastin.
I worked with an aboriginal bloke who was a relation of one of the guys caught up in it.

On a lighter note.

I worked with another guy who was from Jigalong, east of Newman. He was a great bloke, who I swear, smiled with his eyes, his partner was a Roebourne girl. He used to tell some good yarns. One story was of a fight his dog had with his next door neighbours dog in Roebourne.
My mates dog was a heeler, dingo cross, he used to keep it in the backyard with a gate keeping it from roaming the streets like a lot of dogs did, one of them dogs was his neighbours dog.

He said that one day he opened the gate to go out into the front yard, and that before he could close it, his dog got out because it knew the dog next door was out the front.
He said that his dog must've been sick of this dog peeing and pooing on his home turf because it got stuck into the other dog.
His neighbour heard the commotion and called his dog from his front door, so it tucked tail and bolted, with my mates dog right up his clacker.
Before his neighbour could close the door my mates dog got in the house, and continued giving the other dog a flogging.
My mate raced over and went inside, but couldn't get his dog off. He said " I looked around and saw a mop bucket, so I picked it up and hit my dog on the head with it, because it was going to kill the other dog."
And then with those smiling eyes he pointed to his face and said "see this scar, the mop bucket bounced up and split my face open"
He said "I was bleeding, but the neighbours dog was bleeding more though" I damn near peed myself laughing.

Sadly I've lost contact with him, he was a beautiful man.
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
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2 - No I've never been to Roebourne and only know about the area from the net and from the census, so understand that I may not have an in depth understanding of the local area, though what they are screaming out for is more employment (clearly from the high level of unemployed working age people). In order to gain that employment they need education and training, the census also shows how weak their levels of education are. I'm fully of the belief that ways out of poverty should be through education, which helps to lead to higher levels of employment and then the moneyflow can start to roll through local communities. Just throwing money without the underlying investment in education / training will do very little and maintain low levels of employment in these localised areas. That was my point, the offer by FMG maybe needed tweaking with higher overall investment but was the right type of package to be offering the local people IMO.
Do you think it is the place of Forrest, or any other miners, to dictate how the money they pay to take resources from someone elses land is used?
would they try to do that if they were digging up a cattle station?
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
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Do you think it is the place of Forrest, or any other miners, to dictate how the money they pay to take resources from someone elses land is used?
would they try to do that if they were digging up a cattle station?

Its not as simple as that though. The local people were only given exclusive rights over the land in 2017 when FMG have now been producing for 10 years and paying WA royalties to the WA Government.

Its also worth considering that providing groups of people that haven't had a lot of money with massive windfalls have not had great results in other parts of the world so providing support in other ways to generate wealth for the area is not a bad idea. How has that worked out in Africa or Asia for example? Large windfall sums generally lead to significant corruption. Maybe it will be different with aboriginal communities, or maybe not and it just makes the problems even worse.

The FMG proposal was in reapect to the 0.5% royalty that the local people asked for (which in terms of value, I'd see no reason why thats not a perfectly reasonable number, possibly IMO a bit on the low side but thats what their negotiated request was for). FMG responded with a reduced royalty value but a package of education, training and jobs which bearing in mind they are a major employer in their area (there aren't many) is a big commitment to the area and the local people.

I would think this is more valuable to the local area, you can throw money at the area but its difficult to conjure jobs from nowhere, there has to be a driving factor in order to generate jobs and most likely one of the reasons why employment is so low in Roebourne. I'm speculating here, but if the package was say a royalty of 0.3% and education, training and jobs for x number of people, that is probably more valuable to the local people as in the alternative scenario of a 0.5% royalty, where are the jobs going to come from??

I don't believe this the 1st negotiated agreement that FMG have developed with local aboriginal people, I think they have 13 or 14 agreements with local groups through their Pilbara operations.
 

mjb

Tiger Matchwinner
Jun 23, 2007
576
452
Any chance of this thread getting back on track? Asking for a friend.
 
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tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
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Its not as simple as that though. The local people were only given exclusive rights over the land in 2017 when FMG have now been producing for 10 years and paying WA royalties to the WA Government.

Its also worth considering that providing groups of people that haven't had a lot of money with massive windfalls have not had great results in other parts of the world so providing support in other ways to generate wealth for the area is not a bad idea. How has that worked out in Africa or Asia for example? Large windfall sums generally lead to significant corruption. Maybe it will be different with aboriginal communities, or maybe not and it just makes the problems even worse.

The FMG proposal was in reapect to the 0.5% royalty that the local people asked for (which in terms of value, I'd see no reason why thats not a perfectly reasonable number, possibly IMO a bit on the low side but thats what their negotiated request was for). FMG responded with a reduced royalty value but a package of education, training and jobs which bearing in mind they are a major employer in their area (there aren't many) is a big commitment to the area and the local people.

I would think this is more valuable to the local area, you can throw money at the area but its difficult to conjure jobs from nowhere, there has to be a driving factor in order to generate jobs and most likely one of the reasons why employment is so low in Roebourne. I'm speculating here, but if the package was say a royalty of 0.3% and education, training and jobs for x number of people, that is probably more valuable to the local people as in the alternative scenario of a 0.5% royalty, where are the jobs going to come from??

I don't believe this the 1st negotiated agreement that FMG have developed with local aboriginal people, I think they have 13 or 14 agreements with local groups through their Pilbara operations.
With the greatest of respect Mr poshman, you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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