Afghanistan poll | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Afghanistan poll

Should our soldiers come home now?

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 60.5%
  • No

    Votes: 8 21.1%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 7 18.4%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    38

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
9
I don't quite get why we're still in Afghanistan and what we hope to achieve before withdrawing our troops. Sad to see more soldiers killed. We don't, and probably never will, know the story behind the murders. A friend whose son is a highly qualified soldier in a specialist area over there discussed the risk and the worries from a parent's perspective with us recently and said it's what they want to do and they kill people themselves.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one...

Sigh :(
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
I said "no" purely because for some type of stability, there needs to be some presence from Coalition/Allies/NATO troops.
From a selfish point of view, bailing out now would be a bit of a dishonour to the troops who have passed away there.

I would say "yes" if we were going to nuke the joint because let's be honest, the whole region is built upon violence and extremism over centuries with, to us Westerners, barbaric and out of date laws and rituals, which are never going to be wiped out using peace, diplomacy, or conventional force.

The best we can do with our presence there, is try and keep some type of control in key regions and hopefully get Afghanis up to some level where they can be capable themselves to control key regions but with the corruptness and tribal feuds dating back to when Adam was a boy, then it is going to be a long, hard, slog for them. :-\
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
9
I voted undecided. It all seems futile to me but I confess to my ignorance on the matter. Because I see no resolution or a clearly better future I do lean towards coming home.
 

tigerdave

Ya just gotta stand in line
Feb 1, 2006
7,843
3
What get's me is that these middle eastern countries didn't have this hatred towards westerners years ago.Why in the last 25 to 30 years have they had this angst.It's now inbred amongst these people and unfortunately it will never go away.I'd like to think that our troops are out of Afghanistan by the end of next year.
 

U2Tigers

Tiger Legend
Nov 10, 2005
7,167
0
Adelaide
I voted no.

But a very worthwhile topic.

As a soldier, who has mates over there, mates about to go, and been a mate of some killed and injured, I say no, as the job isn't finished, and to walk away now would mean there lives lost, or injuries were for little.

A sad day yesterday.

RIP buddies.
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
tigerdave said:
What get's me is that these middle eastern countries didn't have this hatred towards westerners years ago.Why in the last 25 to 30 years have they had this angst.It's now inbred amongst these people and unfortunately it will never go away.I'd like to think that our troops are out of Afghanistan by the end of next year.

Its not just westerners though mate.

There are more locals (fellow Muslims) killed by radicals/bombs than the U.S/Coalition forces have killed.

Every day there are stories of beheaded corpses where the Taliban have claimed responsibility.
One recent one I remember was they beheaded 17 people because they were having a party:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/27/taliban-behead-17-afghan-partygoers

As for the hatred towards westerners....its not westerners really...its christians.
And its been happening for centuries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
9
U2Tigers said:
I say no, as the job isn't finished, and to walk away now would mean there lives lost, or injuries were for little.

That's what I don't get. What are they doing and when, if ever, will it ever be considered finished?
 

U2Tigers

Tiger Legend
Nov 10, 2005
7,167
0
Adelaide
A good question.

With no nice answer, we can't change the way they think, values, ideals or culture, if we wanted to that would take generations, forces would be there for a hundred years or more, so not really an option, as that would just make their resentment of us worse.

Now if the answer is to make their defense force a working entity on its own so they can provide their own security, well that's a lot more short term, but heightens chances of acts like yesterday to continue to occur.

There's no real answers, and sadly there's no guarantees of success once we pull out anyway.

No foreign force has ever left Afganistan unscathed.
 

tigerdave

Ya just gotta stand in line
Feb 1, 2006
7,843
3
Liverpool said:
Its not just westerners though mate.

There are more locals (fellow Muslims) killed by radicals/bombs than the U.S/Coalition forces have killed.

Every day there are stories of beheaded corpses where the Taliban have claimed responsibility.
One recent one I remember was they beheaded 17 people because they were having a party:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/27/taliban-behead-17-afghan-partygoers

As for the hatred towards westerners....its not westerners really...its christians.
And its been happening for centuries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades


Some good research there Livers,but i can't see any resolution to the problems in Afghanistan EVER!!

Nuclear warfare may be the answer.
 

KnightersRevenge

Baby Knighters is on board.
Aug 21, 2007
6,527
695
Ireland
I'll never understand why people think anything can be accomplished through violence and brutality. No offence to those in the armed forces, my brother was an AJ. Please don't make the mistake that opposition to armed conflict has anything to with the individual soldiers. But war is state-sanctioned violence IMO.
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
KnightersRevenge said:
I'll never understand why people think anything can be accomplished through violence and brutality. No offence to those in the armed forces, my brother was an AJ. Please don't make the mistake that opposition to armed conflict has anything to with the individual soldiers. But war is state-sanctioned violence IMO.

Do you think the Taliban, al-qaeda, and other radicals can be changed by diplomacy?

I'm afraid Knighters, while I admire your adminishment for using violence, sometimes it is the only way when the enemy sees violence as the only way and is intent on wiping you out.
 

KnightersRevenge

Baby Knighters is on board.
Aug 21, 2007
6,527
695
Ireland
Liverpool said:
Do you think the Taliban, al-qaeda, and other radicals can be changed by diplomacy?

I'm afraid Knighters, while I admire your adminishment for using violence, sometimes it is the only way when the enemy sees violence as the only way and is intent on wiping you out.

Why should we feel to need or indeed believe we have the authority to change the culture of a group of wholly unrelated people? While the nature of community relations in these countries is distasteful or even murderous, does that give us the right to enter another sovereign state and impose by violence our ideology?
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
KnightersRevenge said:
Why should we feel to need or indeed believe we have the authority to change the culture of a group of wholly unrelated people? While the nature of community relations in these countries is distasteful or even murderous, does that give us the right to enter another sovereign state and impose by violence our ideology?

If other countries are getting swamped by boat people and displaced refugees/asylum-seekers from the "distasteful and murderous" countries, then yes.
 

KnightersRevenge

Baby Knighters is on board.
Aug 21, 2007
6,527
695
Ireland
Liverpool said:
If other countries are getting swamped by boat people and displaced refugees/asylum-seekers from the "distasteful and murderous" countries, then yes.

Ok Livers, and I suspect many are of a similar opinion. I struggle to speak casually about intentionally causing the death of others, all the reasoning in the world won't make that sound reasonable to me.
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
KnightersRevenge said:
Ok Livers, and I suspect many are of a similar opinion. I struggle to speak casually about intentionally causing the death of others, all the reasoning in the world won't make that sound reasonable to me.

I wasn't speaking casually and I'm sorry if my remark came across as flippant...but I'll put it another stronger way.

You only have to read about what the Nazis and Japanese did in World War 2 to see that sometimes going to war and intentionally causing death is the only reasonable method left to defend a people, a nation, or a way of life.
 

K3

Tiger Champion
Oct 9, 2006
4,635
346
Liverpool said:
I wasn't speaking casually and I'm sorry if my remark came across as flippant...but I'll put it another stronger way.

You only have to read about what the Nazis and Japanese did in World War 2 to see that sometimes going to war and intentionally causing death is the only reasonable method left to defend a people, a nation, or a way of life.
On this point, are we helping to 'defend a way of life'? Or are 'we' there to impose ours?

RIP to those who have passed in service
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
K3 said:
On this point, are we helping to 'defend a way of life'? Or are 'we' there to impose ours?

RIP to those who have passed in service

I think a bit of both....and for strategic reasons as well.
 

KnightersRevenge

Baby Knighters is on board.
Aug 21, 2007
6,527
695
Ireland
Liverpool said:
I wasn't speaking casually and I'm sorry if my remark came across as flippant...but I'll put it another stronger way.

You only have to read about what the Nazis and Japanese did in World War 2 to see that sometimes going to war and intentionally causing death is the only reasonable method left to defend a people, a nation, or a way of life.

I was only referring to myself Livers, didn't mean to suggest that you were (speaking casually)
 

Rfc4Ever

Tiger Legend
Oct 5, 2007
12,709
1,898
My brother is in Afghanistan ATM (his 2nd deployment). Has been involved in 2 x incidents over the last 10 days - has been a very long week for him and his mates over there. Can only imagine what he and his mates have gone and are going through. Although morale is low at times like these, the Aussie spirit will shine through for the most part and the boys will soldier on and get their job done.

Although I want my bro back here where he is safe, there is still alot of work to be done over there. Absolutely no point pulling out now and I would be selfish to have him back here for someone else to take his place and be put in same danger he finds himself in on a daily basis.

For those who think our cause has done nothing over there, they have no idea. The ANA has come a very long way over the last few years, mentored by our troops and other international soldiers. The plan is for the ANA to eventually take over the military role over there with some guidance along the way - the outlook is good on this. Obviously remains to be seen how effective they will be on their own, however our efforts to implement this are well been worth it in the bigger picture.
 

martyshire

^^ Jack Graham that is
Aug 11, 2007
1,664
8
Rowville...or maybe London
rosy23 said:
I voted undecided. It all seems futile to me but I confess to my ignorance on the matter. Because I see no resolution or a clearly better future I do lean towards coming home.
I'm with you Rosy. I actually think I know about as much re the conflict as the average Australian; actually probably a little more; but I have to put my hands up and say I am unqualified to have an opinion. I don't know what life is like in Afghanistan, what it was like before the Russians arrived, what it was like before international forces arrived, what it will be like if/when Australia and/or international forces leave, the nature of any relationship between the Taliban, terrorists and Afghanistan generally and the associated impact on the world (i.e. Australia + allies) if the conflict continues/ends. I doubt there are more than a few thousand people in Australian that actually understand all of this this.

I think it is a shame that more people are not willing to confess their ignorance on the matter and I hope to hell that some of the few thousand people who understand the situation are among those advising the government (and opposition).