An Enormous Decision for Indigenous Australians.

[poppa x]

So it's OK for you to call Liverpool a racist for referring to blacks.
But when you refer to Whites you're not a racist?
I thought racism was making a distinction between any race, white black brown or yellow.

And it's good to see the "left" side of the argument has resumed its name calling. Exactly what I was expecting.

 

[tigersnake]

So it's OK for you to call Liverpool a racist for referring to blacks.
But when you refer to Whites you're not a racist?
I thought racism was making a distinction between any race, white black brown or yellow.

And it's good to see the "left" side of the argument has resumed its name calling.  Exactly what I was expecting.

I don't quite know what you're talking about. Racism isn't making a distinction between the races, races are different after all, its descriminating based on race.

As for name calling, as I said, in this particular case it isn't. Its just calling a spade a spade.

 

[Legends of 2017]

So it's OK for you to call Liverpool a racist for referring to blacks.
But when you refer to Whites you're not a racist?
I thought racism was making a distinction between any race, white black brown or yellow.

And it's good to see the "left" side of the argument has resumed its name calling. Exactly what I was expecting.

I don't quite know what you're talking about. Racism isn't making a distinction between the races, races are different after all, its descriminating based on race.

As for name calling, as I said, in this particular case it isn't. Its just calling a spade a spade.

I'm not going to defend Liverpool, he seems to be able to hold his own. I have been called a racist in the past, which I found offensive since I've been on the receiving end of racist abuse in the past. It seems if you have a different opinion to some, it's ok to abuse for not agreeing. I don't understand all the issues surrounding the Indigenous problem, but I am trying to learn. Which makes it frustrating when threads get hijacked for personal agendas. I know PRE isn't THE most informative forum on the subject but it is a start for me.

Tigersnake, at the risk of facing your wrath, I point you to your quote in your last post about discriminating based on race. A common theme to many of Liverpool's posts is that he expects everyone to be treated the same. Isn't what you and some other posters advocating 'racism' in that the Indigenous should be different because of their race? I'm not calling you or the others racist but that quote also covers what you guys mention.

 

[Rosy]

I heard on the radio news during the night that LaTrobe Uni at Beechworth had a cleansing smoking ceremony performed by the local tribe whose traditional land it was on.  There had been a mental institution there prior to the uni and the Koories felt troubled and wouldn't enter the buildings or attend uni there.

It's nice when cultures are willing to work togther for the betterment of everybody.  No bans, no takeovers, no politics, no antagonism.  Just peace, harmony and understanding.   :hearton

 

[Lidsand]

So it's OK for you to call Liverpool a racist for referring to blacks.
But when you refer to Whites you're not a racist?
I thought racism was making a distinction between any race, white black brown or yellow.

And it's good to see the "left" side of the argument has resumed its name calling. Exactly what I was expecting.

refering to whites is not racism for the same reason only african americans can call each other nigger

 

[eight ace]

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/rda1975202/

You can see from the terms of the Racial Discrimination Act that discrimination on the basis of race is unlawful for all races. But when Liverpool talks about a desire for all races to be treated equally he is being extremely disingenuous. That is not really what he wants at all. He would much rather maintain the status quo and if you look around you, aboriginal people are starting from a position of considerable disadvantage in this country.

The disadvantage has existed since European settlement, and has changed over time, but it still exists. Like it or not, aboriginal people hold a unique position in this country, and their history since European settlement has been unlike that of any other ethnic group. Where structures have been put in place directed towards aboriginal people they have had a variety of aims, not all benign or positive.

I'm not going to bother cutting and pasting or posting links to illustrate the disadvantage. I really can't be bothered, and if you can't see it for yourself then you are not worth bothering with. Someone like Liverpool attributes the position of aboriginal people entirely to their own actions. He says that if they change their behaviour things will change for them. He is not right. Of course there are elements of aboriginal societies that need to change. But there has been a continued lack of good will at every level in Australian society to assist them in that process. Aboriginal people and their institutions are still fundamentally mistrusted by society at large. Change cannot all be one way, and liverpool and his ilk always expect it to be.

People like liverpool come to places like this as if they have all the answers to the variety of complex problems posed. Of course, nothing is complex to people like him. Everything is black and white (literally).

 

[tigersnake]

So it's OK for you to call Liverpool a racist for referring to blacks.
But when you refer to Whites you're not a racist?
I thought racism was making a distinction between any race, white black brown or yellow.

And it's good to see the "left" side of the argument has resumed its name calling.  Exactly what I was expecting.

I don't quite know what you're talking about. Racism isn't making a distinction between the races, races are different after all, its descriminating based on race.

As for name calling, as I said, in this particular case it isn't. Its just calling a spade a spade.

I'm not going to defend Liverpool, he seems to be able to hold his own. I have been called a racist in the past, which I found offensive since I've been on the receiving end of racist abuse in the past. It seems if you have a different opinion to some, it's ok to abuse for not agreeing. I don't understand all the issues surrounding the Indigenous problem, but I am trying to learn. Which makes it frustrating when threads get hijacked for personal agendas. I know PRE isn't THE most informative forum on the subject but it is a start for me.

Tigersnake, at the risk of facing your wrath, I point you to your quote in your last post about discriminating based on race. A common theme to many of Liverpool's posts is that he expects everyone to be treated the same. Isn't what you and some other posters advocating 'racism' in that the Indigenous should be different because of their race? I'm not calling you or the others racist but that quote also covers what you guys mention.

Legends, there has been some good points made on threads on indigenous issues in the past, but I wouldn't blame you for getting waylayed or hoodwinked.  I'd recommend some reading on the subject if you're genuinely interested. Theres not much to my wrath at all really.  I just get annoyed with liverpool and Chelsea jumping in every time this topic comes up to lay the boots in to the poor old blackfellas.

As 8 has said, don't be fooled by Liverpool's equality smokescreen.  Let me put it simply.  Imagine a boxing match between Rove McManus and Willy Mason.  Bell rings, they go ten rounds, obviously rove gets his head punched in and almost killed.  Then at the end of 10 rounds someone says, 'hang on, its not a fair fight'.  Everyone stops and goes 'oh yeah, OK we'll have a race then'.  Willie goes, 'bewdy, lets go'  .  Rove, in a barely audible grunting says 'hang on, I'm half dead, I need a doctor and some time to get back on my feet'.  Liverpool, who is the ref, says 'don't be such a baby rove, thats all ancient history, on your marks, get set BANG'

 

[skybeau]

I heard on the radio news during the night that LaTrobe Uni at Beechworth had a cleansing smoking ceremony performed by the local tribe whose traditional land it was on. There had been a mental institution there prior to the uni and the Koories felt troubled and wouldn't enter the buildings or attend uni there.

It's nice when cultures are willing to work togther for the betterment of everybody. No bans, no takeovers, no politics, no antagonism. Just peace, harmony and understanding. :hearton

Well, thats Latrobe Uni for you...what a brilliant university it really is...really the best university in Victoria, if not Australia...etc etc ;D ;D ;D

 

[eight ace]

I would actually support a boxing match between Willy Mason and Rove McManus. Preferably a fight to the death.

 

[tigersnake]

I would actually support a boxing match between Willy Mason and Rove McManus. Preferably a fight to the death.

:cutelaugh

I thought someone would say that as I wrote it.  You goddamn celebritist

I propbably should apologise to any indigenous people for using rove a metaphor for them, well express deep regret anyway.

 

[Legends of 2017]

So it's OK for you to call Liverpool a racist for referring to blacks.
But when you refer to Whites you're not a racist?
I thought racism was making a distinction between any race, white black brown or yellow.

And it's good to see the "left" side of the argument has resumed its name calling. Exactly what I was expecting.

I don't quite know what you're talking about. Racism isn't making a distinction between the races, races are different after all, its descriminating based on race.

As for name calling, as I said, in this particular case it isn't. Its just calling a spade a spade.

I'm not going to defend Liverpool, he seems to be able to hold his own. I have been called a racist in the past, which I found offensive since I've been on the receiving end of racist abuse in the past. It seems if you have a different opinion to some, it's ok to abuse for not agreeing. I don't understand all the issues surrounding the Indigenous problem, but I am trying to learn. Which makes it frustrating when threads get hijacked for personal agendas. I know PRE isn't THE most informative forum on the subject but it is a start for me.

Tigersnake, at the risk of facing your wrath, I point you to your quote in your last post about discriminating based on race. A common theme to many of Liverpool's posts is that he expects everyone to be treated the same. Isn't what you and some other posters advocating 'racism' in that the Indigenous should be different because of their race? I'm not calling you or the others racist but that quote also covers what you guys mention.

Legends, there has been some good points made on threads on indigenous issues in the past, but I wouldn't blame you for getting waylayed or hoodwinked. I'd recommend some reading on the subject if you're genuinely interested. Theres not much to my wrath at all really. I just get annoyed with liverpool and Chelsea jumping in every time this topic comes up to lay the boots in to the poor old blackfellas.

As 8 has said, don't be fooled by Liverpool's equality smokescreen. Let me put it simply. Imagine a boxing match between Rove McManus and Willy Mason. Bell rings, they go ten rounds, obviously rove gets his head punched in and almost killed. Then at the end of 10 rounds someone says, 'hang on, its not a fair fight'. Everyone stops and goes 'oh yeah, OK we'll have a race then'. Willie goes, 'bewdy, lets go' . Rove, in a barely audible grunting says 'hang on, I'm half dead, I need a doctor and some time to get back on my feet'. Liverpool, who is the ref, says 'don't be such a baby rove, thats all ancient history, on your marks, get set BANG'

Thanks. I would appreciate some links or reading material TS (and Liverpool for that matter). There is a mountain out there but it can be hard to sort out fact from fiction at times though.

 

[Liverpool]

So many words just to build another half dozen strawman arguments. :
You should be a Fox News presenter Liverpool...adept at padding, misdirection, dodging , spinning...and most prized of all, unshakeable conviction that you are right, despite your positions being shown as ridiculous and utterly separated from reality.
Buggered if I know why anyone bothers to debate with you.

Separated from reality, eh?
What part of that post I answered you, are you questioning?

You don't believe the fact, that Nancy de Vries was able to overcome the 'stolen generation' tag to become one of the first Aboriginal nursing graduates from the University of West Sydney?

Or maybe you didn't believe the facts about Nancy Barnes, taken from her parents at 3 years of age, 8 foster homes later, became the first Aboriginal Kindergarten Union Graduate and became Director of the first Alice Springs kindergarten to admit Aboriginal children.

Or maybe you don't like the fact that Nancy wrote a book called "Munyi's Daughter", with the line, "We are referred to as the 'Stolen Generation' I consider myself saved.".

I'm sure you could post some names of Aborigines who were abused while in foster care after being removed from their parents, and I have never denied that. It is something, that regretfully, does occur to some children, of any race or religion, who have been fostered or adopted out.
This cannot be used as an excuse for all Aborigines to fail, however, or blame their failings on 180+ years of white people being here.

As I have proven, not all Aborigines are failures after being removed from their parents, many are grateful that they were given a chance...a chance they may not have received, if they had stayed with their own biological parents, for whatever reason.
These Aborigines have shown their race, and people like yourself, that blaming "180+ years of shocking treatment" does not justify todays Aborigines, from not being able to take hold of some of the opportunities they have available today.

You can call it padding, misdirection, spin-doctoring, or whatever you like.....but simply, if Aborigines of the so-called "stolen generation", in the 1950's, can make something of themselves, there is no excuse for todays Aborigines to not be able make something of themselves as well.....if they so desire.
I'm sick of the past being used as an excuse for current failings...its time individuals took responsibility for their actions.

And yes, you are buggered to debate me on this, because you've been given some facts you don't like....facts that you don't agree with....but at the end of the day, they are FACTS!

Tigersnake, at the risk of facing your wrath, I point you to your quote in your last post about discriminating based on race. A common theme to many of Liverpool's posts is that he expects everyone to be treated the same. Isn't what you and some other posters advocating 'racism' in that the Indigenous should be different because of their race? I'm not calling you or the others racist but that quote also covers what you guys mention.

:clap...thanks Legends...its what I have been advocating on this thread.
What they don't realise, or don't want to realise, is that by treating Aborigines differently compared to other Australians, is supporting a kind of "reverse racism" if you can call it that.

I just get annoyed with liverpool and Chelsea jumping in every time this topic comes up to lay the boots in to the poor old blackfellas.

:nopity

Tigersnake,
The smokescreen is that people like yourself, Rayzorwire, eightace, antman, refuse to accept the FACTS, that the 'stolen generation' is in name only.
No-one, has denied that Aboriginal (and white children, let me add) were removed from their parents, during the 20th century.
I 100% agree.
However, its people like yourself who refuse to acknowledge, that the Cubillo/Gunner case found that these two were not 'stolen', and along the way found that there was at the relevant time no policy of forcible removal of children in the Northern Territory.
This is fact.
In New South Wales, a similar case was thrown out by the Court of Appeal in late September, the same year.
That is also fact.
Therefore, the 'stolen generation' is a fancy name, for Aboriginal children who were fostered out to other homes, maybe because they went through this, which unfortunately, Aboriginal children of today are having to go through, because of the past stolen generation claims:

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1639133.htm

Again....(unfortunately)fact!

Yourself, Rayzorwire, eightace, and antman, refuse to accept FACTS that there have been Aborigines who have been successful, even ones who have been in the 'stolen generation'.
How come, we never hear some of these stories, from you?
Because these facts don't support your views, that Aborigines of today who fail can always turn around and blame 180+ years of shocking treatment by white people.

Finally, I've read posts from all you going on about Howard saying 'sorry'.
How is this going to change todays Aborigines, unless there is going to be a monetary gain from it?
As I posted before, Howard did say this in 1999:

In reflection and in generosity and with good heart, express a regret, and a sincere regret, for what has occurred in the past.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s47033.htm

Again....he said it....fact.

He hasn't actually used the word "Sorry", but to try and enforce that, would be tantamount to being pedantic.

I don't see how using fact, after fact, after fact....can be called a smokescreen, separated from reality, etc....and then for you leftys to label me a racist (again! :.

It's a b!tch, when facts ruin a good story, isn't it fellas? ;D

 

[poppa x]

Give up Livers.
"There are none so blind as those that do not wish to see". Don't know who said this but it is appropriate.

 

[Liverpool]

Give up Livers.
"There are none so blind as those that do not wish to see". Don't know who said this but it is appropriate.

:hihi....yeah, I think you might be right mate.

Problem is, I don't give up lightly...

 

[Rayzorwire]

You go round and round in circles while spinning in the opposite direction Liverpool.

I posted a perfectly valid reason why many Aboriginal people are unwilling to leave their homeland to pursue 'opportunities' and why their spiritual reasons for doing so are not comparable to European, Asian or any other migrants - yet making any point with you is like bouncing a rubber ball off a brick wall, the very next post you're back on the same 'why don't they move' spiel...oblivious to all that has been said, happy to wallow in your ignorance and happy to pretend your 'solution' is defensible when it clearly isn't. When proven wrong, you ignore it and blather on regardless.

Liverpool being oblivious to reality strike one. Liverpool BS debating tactic #1

You love to post non-typical exceptions to reinforce your typically weak arguing position
Example:

As I have proven, not all Aborigines are failures after being removed from their parents

You may as well say; 'as I have proven, it is possible to swim the English channel, therefore, everyone should be able to do it.'

The fact is few have and few can...yet you're always happy to rely on a slim minority proving some sort of rule for the whole. It doesn't. Rather than acknowledge enormous difficulties overcome by a handful of amazing individuals as non-typical, you decide the fact that if a few can, all can.

We look forward to video footage of you swimming the English channel...preferably in winter. Some have, you can too. When you're done with that you can climb Everest, then go and survive off the land for a few years in the Western Desert (I'm sure we can find a few people to chip in for your travel expenses).

Liverpool being oblivious to reality strike two. Liverpool BS debating tactic #2

Every time you post you introduce a few more strawmen to argue against - rather than the actual points someone was making...either an attempt to bore people to death from frustration at having to read through it, or because you know the only chance you have of winning a debate is to invent the other person's position as you go along.

Examples:

Yourself, Rayzorwire, eightace, and antman, refuse to accept FACTS that there have been Aborigines who have been successful, even ones who have been in the 'stolen generation'.

Evidence for the above statement? None.

Can you provide a quote of any of the above people saying that their are NO successful Aborigines? No.

Rayzorwire,
You and your buddies were happy to totally discredit Richards42 initial post, yet now, have the audacity to have a crack at me regarding his second post!

Please point to where I discredited Richards 42.
Or were you making it up as you go along in both the above cases and countless others I can't be bothered picking out...every time you type you create a few more.

Liverpool being oblivious to reality strike three. Liverpool BS debating tactic #3


Now that you're back in the debating dugout arguing with the ref that you deserve another dozen chances to prove you can hit the ball, let me finish with your other, arguably worst debating flaw - the most dishonest at least.
Example:

As I have proven, not all Aborigines are failures after being removed from their parents, many are grateful that they were given a chance

Is that right Liverpool? Several quoted examples of people from The Stolen Generation saying they were 'grateful to be stolen' shouldn't be hard to offer up then should they? These would be people that weren't heartbroken at the separation from their families, they were grateful, as were their parents. All grateful for the opportunity. Nothing more, nothing less. No qualified statements, such as; 'I resent what happened to me, the loss of my family and heritage, but having said that, I was grateful to have the opportunity to become a (fill in the blank). Just people grateful to be stolen - no qualifications. They should be everywhere and easy to find if your statement resembled the truth.

Time and time again you throw out BS statements like the above. You can't prove many people were grateful to be stolen...when called on it, rather than admit you were fabricating BS, or at the very least exaggerating way out of proportion with reality, you go back to Liverpool debating tactics #1, 2 and 3.

I strongly doubt you'll be able to reply (hit the ball) without falling back onto the aforementioned 'Fox News' debating tactics. Why? Because you can't debate a person's points honestly without resorting to the above methods of spin and deception.

All the above sums up why you're not worth bothering with - not because you can't be proved wrong very easily, but because you're too dishonest to acknowledge it...you'd rather serve up the same tired old debating tactics, the same spin and deception until someone abuses you...then declare victory on the basis of nothing.

As I said, I can't be bothered debating you again on any non-football related topic, but it's worth pointing out once and for all how transparent your methods are - you don't fool anyone except for those foolish enough to hold the same prejudices. Maybe anyone bloody minded enough to debate with you in the future will just label your BS tactics using the above numbers? :hihi

 

[Chelsea]

Give up Livers.
"There are none so blind as those that do not wish to see". Don't know who said this but it is appropriate.

:hihi....yeah, I think you might be right mate.

Problem is, I don't give up lightly...

Liverpool..It's seems to be pointless debating/discussing with those who won't concede to facts.

Tigersnake... it's easy to 'dodge the bullets' by calling people racists.... or simpletons. There's nothing racist about it, because some of us don't agree with your views. It's called freedom of speech.......... I think. :hihi

 

[eight ace]

The first thing you have ever got right. This really is pointless.

 

[Liverpool]

.
I posted a perfectly valid reason why many Aboriginal people are unwilling to leave their homeland to pursue 'opportunities' and why their spiritual reasons for doing so are not comparable to European, Asian or any other migrants.

That's because its not a valid reason.....its an excuse, and a poor one at that.

"Spiritual reasons" are used by people like yourself to try and justify why, if the Mohammed can't be bothered going to the mountain, then the mountain should be moved to Mohammed.

We've dealt with Aborigines and their "spiritual reasons" before, and even some Aborigines themselves are sick to death of these bogus excuses, embarrasing their race and culture.

Let's look at some more facts Rayzorwire...

Recently we've had the unbelievable Robbie Thorpe and his 'sacred fire' act, where even the traditional Aboriginal tribe who owned the land disowned this 'spiritual' fire:

"How dare these guys (protesters) speak about Aboriginal rights as traditional Aboriginal people when they don't have the permission of the traditional owners? They don't even recognise the sovereignty of other Aboriginal people."-- Wurundjeri elder IAN HUNTER, Herald Sun, April 12

http://www.education.theage.com.au/pagedetail.asp?intpageid=1612&strsection=students&intsectionid=0

Then, just to refresh the memories of a few people on here, the grand-daddy of all "spiritual" hoaxes....the Hindmarsh Bridge affair, where even Aboriginal women, such as Dulcie Wilson, of the tribe revealed that it was all a load of garbage, and they wanted nothing to do with it:

"My conscience would not allow me to be silent on such an important issue," Wilson told me, as to why she spoke out against the claims about secret women's business. "I had as much right as anyone else to challenge what was being bandied about our Ngarrindjeri history and culture.
"For instance, they claimed that Aboriginal women went to Hindmarsh Island from Point McLeay to abort the foetuses of the white men that they had become pregnant to. This was utter nonsense! It was just another part of a fabricated story. It distorted and ridiculed Ngarrindjeri culture and heritage."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/18/1053196474239.html

More facts for you and others to ponder....

And you'll like this article....it summed-up some of the people on this very forum:

First, the obvious one. Aboriginal heritage claims such as this one under the Federal Aboriginal Heritage Protection Act were not being subjected to the rigorous scrutiny that was clearly necessary.
Second, the Australian community seemed incapable of debating Aboriginal issues in a rational and objective way. The Left too often stymied any sensible debate by resorting to emotional rants and vilifying their opponents as racists.
Thirdly, the Australian media couldn't deal with these issues either. The tabloids over-simplified the issues, but the ABC and the broadsheets---the so-called serious media---were only interested in joining the Left's emotional posturing.

http://www.bennelong.com.au/conferences/conference2003/Kenny2003.php

And this, written by an Aboriginal as well!!!!  8)

As the last line of the article states:

'Reconciliation starts with the Truth'

However, people like yourself Rayzorwire need to start facing the truth and facts, before playing the blame game.

As I have proven, not all Aborigines are failures after being removed from their parents, many are grateful that they were given a chance

Is that right Liverpool? Several quoted examples of people from The Stolen Generation saying they were 'grateful to be stolen' shouldn't be hard to offer up then should they? These would be people that weren't heartbroken at the separation from their families, they were grateful, as were their parents. All grateful for the opportunity. Nothing more, nothing less. No qualified statements, such as; 'I resent what happened to me, the loss of my family and heritage, but having said that, I was grateful to have the opportunity to become a (fill in the blank). Just people grateful to be stolen - no qualifications. They should be everywhere and easy to find if your statement resembled the truth.

I gave you the links they were from Rayzorwire....facts, from what these people have done in their life, and spoken from their own mouths, regarding their life from being part of the "stolen generation" and being able to make something out of their lives nonetheless.
So what do you mean "no qualifications"?
Its fact...these people...Nancy de Vries and Nacy Barnes, for example, are real Aboriginal women, who have stated, for public record (see the links I posted on that particlar thread) made something from out of their lives.
I have never denied that there are some Aboriginal children who were in foster homes that were not so fortunate, and some have suffered abuse. I have never denied that, but on the other hand, there are some who are grateful for the opportunities.
Thi is fact, whether you like it ot not. Its not fabricated, these people aren't figments of my imagination. They are real Aboriginal people.
Fact!

As I have proven, not all Aborigines are failures after being removed from their parents, many are grateful that they were given a chance

Time and time again you throw out BS statements like the above. You can't prove many people were grateful to be stolen...when called on it, rather than admit you were fabricating BS, or at the very least exaggerating way out of proportion with reality, you go back to Liverpool debating tactics #1, 2 and 3.
As I said, I can't be bothered debating you again on any non-football related topic, but it's worth pointing out once and for all how transparent your methods are - you don't fool anyone except for those foolish enough to hold the same prejudices.

Oh, by using the word "many" that is classed as a BS statement?
Gee, it can't be behind the "practically all" you used in this very stirring moment:

Practically all Aboriginal 'problems' stem from all that was taken from them.

Of course, no problems have been caused by the anything else....gee....who is the one way out of proportion of reality now?  :hihi
Rayzorwire, I do agree with you that it is pointless debating with me, when you do not like facing facts, that ruin your little perception that everything is against the Aboriginal race. The fact is mate, its not.

 

[poppa x]

And then we have the female Aboriginal Magistrate (sorry but I forget her name) who originally claimed to be part of the "stolen gereration" only to recant and admit she was never stoen.

The Left too often stymied any sensible debate by resorting to emotional rants and vilifying their opponents as racists.

As I said many pages ago "The left want us to be racist".  They ignore the logic, the facts, because anyone who thinks Big John Howard (he's taller than Hawke) is a good bloke must therefore be a racist redneck bigot.

Have a nice day.

 

[Chelsea]

And then we have the female Aboriginal Magistrate (sorry but I forget her name) who originally claimed to be part of the "stolen gereration" only to recant and admit she was never stoen.

Professor Lowitja O'Donoghue.