Anti-tank Missile

[1eyedtiger]

6 rounds into the season and the tank has already been brought to life.

Complete joke.

Not one team in history has ever won the premiership by losing games (actually, I think Fitzroy won the premiership during the war years despite getting the wooden spoon during the home and away season thanks to the fact that only four teams contested that particular season and the final four system in place at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong. If anyone has the exact year, let me know).

Anyway, this hardly applies now.

You win premierships by winning games and having a winning culture at a club. If you want to tank, then we should just forfeit the rest of the reason and train for next season. Hey, while we're at it, let's just do that every year :veryupset

Let's look at the current coaching situation. I don't care if supporter's write off games as being winnable or not, but for the coach and the players to do so is unforgivable. The club should be going into every game with the expectation of a win. Sadly, it seems that even the club has resigned itself to a losing culture.

I don't care what anyone says.

I say win as many games as you can guys, and to hell with it!

EAT 'EM ALIVE tigers!

 

[mtench]

Yeah lets win a few games and finish ninth again!
We must tank, look at the lists carlton, st kilda, hawthawn and collingwood have put together over the years by tanking.
I do agree about the losing culture, but at seasons end you'll find we have 2 or 3 retirments of some older players and thats probably where the culture lies.
Tank this season ,top up on talented juniors (NO TRADING!) plus a new coach and start again.

 

[Streak]

(actually, I think Fitzroy won the premiership during the war years despite getting the wooden spoon during the home and away season thanks to the fact that only four teams contested that particular season and the final four system in place at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong. If anyone has the exact year, let me know).

1916.

 

[1eyedtiger]

Yeah lets win a few games and finish ninth again!
We must tank, look at the lists carlton, st kilda, hawthawn and collingwood have put together over the years by tanking.
I do agree about the losing culture, but at seasons end you'll find we have 2 or 3 retirments of some older players and thats probably where the culture lies.
Tank this season ,top up on talented juniors (NO TRADING!) plus a new coach and start again.

Sorry to disagree but I don't really care if we finish ninth. It just shows that that's where the attitude of this once proud club is. Ok, I'll give you Hawthorn but the others haven't risen due to tanking, low finishing or high draft picks. Carlton has risen, I believe, a long way due to Judd and the positive attitude he has instilled on the rest of playing group. We'll wait and see for Saints but I still believe it has been the improvement in their attitude rather than draft picks that has resulted in their almost success. Collingwood has done nothing but be as inconsistent as us at times. Losing to the Bombers in a big game shows where they are really at. But then again, the bombers lost to the Lions. What does this show?

It's the attitude of the winning team that matters.

The Lions, even though being down in the dumps, believed they could beat the bombers, and they did.

Yes, you need skills and fitness etc, but if you don't believe you can win, then you won't. Simple as that.

Why lose for the rest of season? Why not instill our young players with a belief that they too can be winners? What's to be gained by saying that's it ok to lose?

 

[Forever Hoping]

Sorry to disagree but I don't really care if we finish ninth. It just shows that that's where the attitude of this once proud club is. Ok, I'll give you Hawthorn but the others haven't risen due to tanking, low finishing or high draft picks. Carlton has risen, I believe, a long way due to Judd and the positive attitude he has instilled on the rest of playing group. We'll wait and see for Saints but I still believe it has been the improvement in their attitude rather than draft picks that has resulted in their almost success. Collingwood has done nothing but be as inconsistent as us at times. Losing to the Bombers in a big game shows where they are really at. But then again, the bombers lost to the Lions. What does this show?

It's the attitude of the winning team that matters.

The Lions, even though being down in the dumps, believed they could beat the bombers, and they did.

Yes, you need skills and fitness etc, but if you don't believe you can win, then you won't. Simple as that.

Why lose for the rest of season? Why not instill our young players with a belief that they too can be winners? What's to be gained by saying that's it ok to lose?

Agree totally. their young brains need to learn that losing is not an acceptable option. We need to establish a strong situation of cognitive dissonance where losing is anathema to the netire list. Geelong didn't tank and have only had one top 10 draft pick in the last 10 years (yes I know, plus G Ablett Jnr under F&S rule) and look at their attitude in regard winning.

 

[LeighW]

I reckon we should tank so we can screw up the pick or bring the best youngster in the country to punt road and teach him how to be a mediocre loser

 

[1eyedtiger]

1916.

Thanks for that Streak.

I think I read it in a book about the history of the Richmond football club about 15 years ago. I borrowed it from a friend of my parents and I feel privileged to have read it. The sort of little fact that crops up now and again and sticks in your mind.

Sadly, I don't think that many of our current players feel privileged to play for Richmond Football Club. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[Streak]

I might be wrong one-eyed, but a useless bit of trivia, I think the first tank used in battle was also in 1916.

 

[RoarEmotion]

Carlton has risen, I believe, a long way due to Judd and the positive attitude he has instilled on the rest of playing group.

Would Carlton have selected Chris Judd if they did not tank that fateful Rd 22 Match against Melbourne a couple of seasons ago (along with a few other come from in front losses), which gave them pick 1 and 3 (for coming 15th) vs pick 3 only (14th with no priority). They traded 3 and 20 and Josh Kennedy for Judd and 46. Would they have traded their only first rounder (and given up Kreuzer/Cotchin/ Masten/Morten)? Would their midfield have the same ring to it without Kreuzer?

In my mind this is the draft that has made Carlton into the powerhouse that it will probably become and was finalised off the back of tanking, once their season was shot, and given they had a couple of previous year pick 1s already from just being terrible (no tanking). If Melbourne had lost this game, last year they would have had the first 2 picks in the draft and probably also this year as well. This win may haunt them into the future. Thank god we lost to St. Kilda, or we wouldn't have Cotchin.

Unfortunately the system dramatically rewards 4.5 wins or less in multiple years (although we haven't taken the best advantage of it). Personally I think the rules should be thought about some more as it is driving the wrong behaviour when people want their clubs to lose, due to the rewards.

On the flipside, if a poor culture causes some of our stars to leave, potentially to the Gold Coast, then tanking would just cause a downward spiral. History would seem to suggest this doesn't happen very often, with maybe Buckley leaving Brisbane for Collingwood and Williams to Carlton from Sydney being a couple of real examples - but those guys certainly at the stage in their careers had a serious case of the FIGJAMS. Buckley certainly changed though for mine. Not sure of any these character types currently at the Tiges.

Round 6 is too early for me, however we should see where sticking some youngsters in some spots for a few weeks takes us.

 

[1eyedtiger]

I might be wrong one-eyed, but a useless bit of trivia, I think the first tank used in battle was also in 1916.

Hard to tell. I had a lokk at the wikipedia site for tanks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_tank

It seems there is a bit of a crossover point between armored cars becoming tanks as such around that time.

Maybe 2016 will give us the change from tankers to AFL premiers.

Would Carlton have selected Chris Judd if they did not tank that fateful Rd 22 Match against Melbourne a couple of seasons ago (along with a few other come from in front losses), which gave them pick 1 and 3 (for coming 15th) vs pick 3 only (14th with no priority). They traded 3 and 20 and Josh Kennedy for Judd and 46. Would they have traded their only first rounder (and given up Kreuzer/Cotchin/ Masten/Morten)? Would their midfield have the same ring to it without Kreuzer?

In my mind this is the draft that has made Carlton into the powerhouse that it will probably become and was finalised off the back of tanking, once their season was shot, and given they had a couple of previous year pick 1s already from just being terrible (no tanking). If Melbourne had lost this game, last year they would have had the first 2 picks in the draft and probably also this year as well. This win may haunt them into the future. Thank god we lost to St. Kilda, or we wouldn't have Cotchin.

Unfortunately the system dramatically rewards 4.5 wins or less in multiple years (although we haven't taken the best advantage of it). Personally I think the rules should be thought about some more as it is driving the wrong behaviour when people want their clubs to lose, due to the rewards.

On the flipside, if a poor culture causes some of our stars to leave, potentially to the Gold Coast, then tanking would just cause a downward spiral. History would seem to suggest this doesn't happen very often, with maybe Buckley leaving Brisbane for Collingwood and Williams to Carlton from Sydney being a couple of real examples - but those guys certainly at the stage in their careers had a serious case of the FIGJAMS. Buckley certainly changed though for mine. Not sure of any these character types currently at the Tiges.

Round 6 is too early for me, however we should see where sticking some youngsters in some spots for a few weeks takes us.

Your post only highlights what I believe to be reward for failure.. Ok, I concede clubs should be helped out in tough times but simply put, the time has come to introduce a lottery based draft system. If they want an even competition, then give every team equal opportunity. Judd was delivered to Carlton by way of AFL rules at the time but in reality, should have been forced onto the ND or the PSD and paid whatever he was offered, as long as it was above the minimum negotiated by the players union. There there would have been no problem except for that I can't see any value of drafting a player who doesn't want to play for you. That was Judd's position. Therefore, we milked it for all it was worth. Probably not much when it comes down to it.

I have come up with a system though to avoid players personal want's and needs.

I think that any player nominating for the ND should a nominate the club club of choice, if any. That club would then have first choice at picking up those players who wish to play for them but must use their draft picks highest to lowest to pay for them. Any players left over are at the mercy of the draft. Then, players can be told, "The club YOU chose didn't want you, WE gave you a chance, now take up that challenge". This also gives players some input into where they might end up even it was not to their own wishes, unlike the current meat market.

I think people underestimate players wishes with regards to who they barracked for when kids and so on. Look at Richo? Won't play for anyone else. How many other players can you say that for? How many other players put in 100% each week if deep down inside, they would rather have played for another club? Richo has that X factor that everyone has been talking about.

Why?

The judd example again, he wanted to play for the scum. There was no point getting to the Tiges no matter what the cost. Let him play for the scum.

 

[mtench]

Sorry to disagree but I don't really care if we finish ninth. It just shows that that's where the attitude of this once proud club is. Ok, I'll give you Hawthorn but the others haven't risen due to tanking, low finishing or high draft picks. Carlton has risen, I believe, a long way due to Judd and the positive attitude he has instilled on the rest of playing group. We'll wait and see for Saints but I still believe it has been the improvement in their attitude rather than draft picks that has resulted in their almost success. Collingwood has done nothing but be as inconsistent as us at times. Losing to the Bombers in a big game shows where they are really at. But then again, the bombers lost to the Lions. What does this show?

It's the attitude of the winning team that matters.

The Lions, even though being down in the dumps, believed they could beat the bombers, and they did.

Yes, you need skills and fitness etc, but if you don't believe you can win, then you won't. Simple as that.

Why lose for the rest of season? Why not instill our young players with a belief that they too can be winners? What's to be gained by saying that's it ok to lose?

I see your point about installing a winning culture into the young players, but st kilda have turned it around with players like riewaldt, kosy and goddard. All high picks. Carlton have turned it around with not just judd, but murphy and gibbs and a feww other high picks. Collingwood tanked to get both thomas and pendlbery and then made two grand finals ( i think it was in that order)
The point is we need more high quality kids ( like cotchin) in our club before we play finals again.

 

[RoarEmotion]

The judd example again, he wanted to play for the scum. There was no point getting to the Tiges no matter what the cost. Let him play for the scum.

I think we are in mild agreement.

My point being that tanking let them get him and I'm not sure they would have got him if they didn't tank (or maybe it would have cost them a lot more). Agree that the value of Judd is much more than his playing ability. Similarly for the Tiges, any training habits Cousins teaches the youngsters may pay off in ways we never know from the outside.

Once you have the cattle, agree the winning culture is everything. Even w/out the cattle you want competitive efforts every week and a hate to lose attitude from all in the playing group. From a big perspective however, if the system rewards mediocrity and finals aren't on, you want to come up with a way of losing but keeping the competitive efforts (try youngsters, try different positions, try different game plans etc.)

 

[23.21.159]

Sadly, I don't think that many of our current players feel privileged to play for Richmond Football Club. I hope I'm wrong though.

Not saying I disagree with the tone of this thread, but can we please desist with this "privilege of playing for the RFC" drivel? Said it before and I'll say it again ......... why would Brett Deledio (for example) feel any more privileged to play for Richmond than he would for Collingwood, Essendon or especially Carlton where his old man played?

These guys are professional footballers and their sole motivation should be to win and be successful ... not to win and feel any better about it because they are wearing yellow and black. Yes, there are a few in our side (and any side) who for various reasons would prefer it to be Richmond but for most it's just the club that had the relevant draft pick.

Sometimes I think the fans put too much on the players in the way of expectation simply because it's the Tiges. By all means support them to the hilt but let's not kid ourselves that it should be more important to them because it's Richmond.