Are the Tigers up to taking the next steps in IT?

[pahoffm]

Thanks Phantom.  A few more questions to help understand it more, if you dont mind:-

Is it tapping into an existing "almost instantaneous" database maintained by someone else, as Fudge was explaining before? Yes, as I understand it.

To what extent is it interactive i.e. be tweaked to highlight specific match-ups ? That depends on the extent (up to 100%) to which the User uses the application. The application supplier would work through specific requirements with the client/user.

Is our opposition getting the same info i.e. does it become even more like a game of chess? In cases of wealthy clubs, like Essendon or the interstate clubs, they're currently using it, we are not. So they've already got the advantage.

Who keeps track of positional switches and how does it work in with the older "tools" like magnetic boards etc. Good question. Have ask Fudge that one.

Are the TV commentators using the same system...... like when they come up with the "who's running hot" or so-and-so hasn't had a touch in the last 5 minutes? I believe so. When Eddie pulls a probability figure off his computer for a shot at goal, I believe he's reading straight off the screen. When the TV flashes up a match-up stat, it's coming straight off the Champion Data link.

Would we need 2-3 laptops, say a couple in the coaches box and one on the bench? Then at the huddles? I'm pretty certain these are already in place and were used in 2005.

Hope that answers most of your questions. If not, just keep asking.

 

[Hayfever]

Very interesting stuff Phantom.

Sounds like we need our coaches to become even more proficient with the latest technologies. 

Keep pushing the Club 80 support for this initiative. It is an excellent avenue for providing tangible, constructive supporter-based assistance.

The goal should be for "RFC to be the best at IT" :gotigers

 

[pahoffm]

Yes, it is very important.

Whether it be footy, business or world domination, the team with the most advanced technologies usually wins.

 

[Dallas]

Great stuff Phantom (and thanks for the insight Fudge),

While this seems 'cutting edge' the sad fact is most sports have been at this for years. For all the critisism of John Buchanan (Aust Cricket Coach) during the Ashes he came to the fore via his use of statistical data when he was Qld Cricket Coach - which was now 7+ years ago!

Footy clubs are the same, i remember coming home from the US over a decade ago (it was 1994) and visiting Essendon FC where Sheeds was proudly showing off their video editing suite which was linked to laptops with staff coding plays in so he could search instantly. It was pretty rudimentary at the time, but he knew then (via his regular trips to the US and UK) that this was the future and was going to give him an edge until everyone else caught up. Having seen the Crows and Eagles set ups they have classrooms that are hard core computer labs: 25-30 workstations, players looking over match-ups, trying to see trends for set plays and stoppages. They also have auditoriums where coaches hold classes via the laptops on past and future opponents (we have this too - albeit pretty 2nd rate compared to the interstate setups).

ESPN has just spent US$100m building a digital editing suite/storage facility so every single game/highlight etc they cover is digitally stored so it can be searched instantly (which by-the-way will lead to a new revenue stream for them and most sports codes whereby people will be able to request - for a fee - any highlight ever captured on file. E.G. - want to see the top 10 marks by Tiger players in the 70's taken at the MCG? Pay $X and it will be delivered to your phone/computer/TV/iPod instantly - however i digress). The NFL, NBA and MLB have spent the last 5 years (and tens of millions) converting all their archives to digital format for the same purposes.

The facts are for $8k it's more than a luxury - it's a freakin' necessity. If it was $100k it would be a necessity - let along $8k!

 

[dcstar]

Phanto, for the uninitiated among us can you give a bit of a precis of how the coaches would use these programs on matchday or at other times?

Here are a few examples of live stats.

1) 5 minutes into the quarter, the opposition seem to be taking the ball out of the centre. A quick click on the screen tells that Cain Acland has won the last 4 hitouts against Simmonds. Time to shift Knobel back into the ruck.
........

Jeez, without any batteries I - along with thousands of others - could have pointed that situation out on many occasions last season.......

Stats are only data, data does not become information until it is collated and understood, information is only of use when those who have access to it are willing to act on it.

We could have all the data possible during the course of a match, but unless the other two items are also there, it ends up being of little use and pretty pointless.

 

[dcstar]

Yes, it is very important.

Whether it be footy, business or world domination, the team with the most advanced technologies usually wins.

Yeah, just ask One-Tel (and other failures) how well they did with "advanced technologies"......

Any technology is just a tool - a means to an end - and it is also vitally important as to how the tool is used for any success.

If improved technology can assist our existing processes, then all well and good, if we don't have the ability to fully utilise any technology to our advantage, then it may be of dubious value. And if we need to spend more money on resources to fully utilise this sort of thing, well we all know the financial constraints we already operate under........

 

[pahoffm]

Phanto, for the uninitiated among us can you give a bit of a precis of how the coaches would use these programs on matchday or at other times? 

Here are a few examples of live stats.

1) 5 minutes into the quarter, the opposition seem to be taking the ball out of the centre. A quick click on the screen tells that Cain Acland has won the last 4 hitouts against Simmonds. Time to shift Knobel back into the ruck.
........

Jeez, without any batteries I - along with thousands of others - could have pointed that situation out on many occasions last season.......

Stats are only data, data does not become information until it is collated and understood, information is only of use when those who have access to it are willing to act on it.

We could have all the data possible during the course of a match, but unless the other two items are also there, it ends up being of little use and pretty pointless.

Yes, but if you have the facility and the users aren't using it, even after training, then I suggest you might get a new set of users.

In AFL footy today it's not enough to be an old fashioned coach. At the Crows, Neil Craig has a long history of bio-mechanics and is fully IT astute. The Crows improvement in 2005 has been put down to technology improvements that were absent under Ayres.

Many of you may have seen the blue shoulder braces that some players wear during games. These braces are in fact tracking transmitters. A tracking system, like a radar, tracks the movement of those players over a field so that at any time during the game you can follow where they've run, how far they've run, as 2 examples. Some of you might have seen players from other clubs wearing these blue shoulder braces for 2 to 3 years now. At Tigerland we started using them last year.

Dallas, regarding the video recording you mentioned, Essendon started using video about 1994. It came to the Tigers around the time Frawley started, about 1998. By 2002, when the rest most of the AFL had switched to digital, we were still using video. Other clubs were getting realtime info, the Tiges were getting their video edits by Tuesday morning. (A bit like the Conquistadors v the Incas or Aztecs.)

In 2003, our recruiting, without technology, was hit or miss. You can see that we mostly missed. In 2004, as Greg says, he had the videos from the U18 carnival, the TAC finals, and my spreadsheets. In 2005, Greg had digital recording of 280 games played around Australia preselected by him, plus other data including mine and other reports too.

Many of you at the draft night last year would have been surprised at the improvement in the technology of our recruiting compared to previous years.

Point is, we can't stand still with our technology. We should have coaching staff on board that embrace technology. I know that both Wallace & Royal are adept at IT, Royal a bit more so. I know the club in general has become more adept with technologies.

Well, my point is, we can't stand still with technologies. If we aim to be number one on the ladder, we need to aim to be number one with the technologies that support our football department. And the technologies that we use must change as the technology itself changes.

 

[Hayfever]

In 2003, our recruiting, without technology, was hit or miss. You can see that we mostly missed. In 2004, as Greg says, he had the videos from the U18 carnival, the TAC finals, and my spreadsheets. In 2005, Greg had digital recording of 280 games played around Australia preselected by him, plus other data including mine and other reports too.

Many of you at the draft night last year would have been surprised at the improvement in the technology of our recruiting compared to previous years.

Point is, we can't stand still with our technology. We should have coaching staff on board that embrace technology. I know that both Wallace & Royal are adept at IT, Royal a bit more so. I know the club in general has become more adept with technologies.

Well, my point is, we can't stand still with technologies. If we aim to be number one on the ladder, we need to aim to be number one with the technologies that support our football department. And the technologies that we use must change as the technology itself changes.

Hear, hear  :clap

Given RFC's current competitive situation on-field not only can we not afford to stand still....... we cannot afford to stop running at full speed to finally catch up in order to then go into the lead. Let's do what we can to both support and keep the pressure on Miller, Wallace and Royal.

Meanwhile David C will still be changing the batteries on dusting off his abacus 

 

[dcstar]

......
Well, my point is, we can't stand still with technologies. If we aim to be number one on the ladder, we need to aim to be number one with the technologies that support our football department. And the technologies that we use must change as the technology itself changes.

And my point is that you can have all the technology you can get your hands on, but you also need to be able to use it to the full potential - and that usually requires a lot more than "let's buy this "X" system......".

If we have the ability (and resources) to use any new technology, then fine, but it has to be considered in that context.

BTW, after having worked for years in an industry selling commercial "technology" solutions, I have seen what happens when people expect their new "Gee-whiz U-beaut" piece of technology to perform without the rest of the setup required to make it a success - and it usually isn't a pretty sight..........

 

[pahoffm]

......
Well, my point is, we can't stand still with technologies. If we aim to be number one on the ladder, we need to aim to be number one with the technologies that support our football department. And the technologies that we use must change as the technology itself changes.

And my point is that you can have all the technology you can get your hands on, but you also need to be able to use it to the full potential - and that usually requires a lot more than "let's buy this "X" system......".

If we have the ability (and resources) to use any new technology, then fine, but it has to be considered in that context.

BTW, after having worked for years in an industry selling commercial "technology" solutions, I have seen what happens when people expect their new "Gee-whiz U-beaut" piece of technology to perform without the rest of the setup required to make it a success - and it usually isn't a pretty sight..........

I agree with you Dave. We both come from IT backgrounds. And my background is one where I've had to watch every $. Not only that but I've had get the same result as other companies whilst only being able to spend a fraction of what they spend.

Value for money in IT projects is paramount, and for every piece of new equipment, new application, etc, users should be able to get the most from that new capability.

My point is the new technology seems to have a reasonable cost and can make us as competitive with the leading clubs. As long as stays within that cost, and is used to the max, then it seems a reasonable addition. Especially when the finance might come from an external source outside the club, such as Club80 or whoever.

 

[Hayfever]

My point is the new technology seems to have a reasonable cost and can make us as competitive with the leading clubs. As long as stays within that cost, and is used to the max, then it seems a reasonable addition. Especially when the finance might come from an external source outside the club, such as Club80 or whoever

Agreed....... and what a fantastic way for a support group or groups to emphatically demonstrate a willingness to assist RFC. That assistance can be with funds, technical support or both.

Seems like what you had already started with Miller a year or so back Phantom could be the genesis of something special.

Go for it  :gotigers

 

[dcstar]

.......
My point is the new technology seems to have a reasonable cost and can make us as competitive with the leading clubs. As long as stays within that cost, and is used to the max, then it seems a reasonable addition. Especially when the finance might come from an external source outside the club, such as Club80 or whoever.

Well, do you know if this particular technology is going to require additional resources (like extra staff) to run it and provide/interpret this "real time" data to the coaching staff during matches?

If we don't need any extra resources then fine, but if we end up either having to divert someone else from other duties then it must mean that the other area will suffer, or if we have to provide an extra person to make this technology usable then it will cost the club far more than just purchasing the stuff.

Even if someone does this for "free" in Victoria, it is most likely that it will cost another air fare and accommodation for our interstate trips for what must be a specialised job, and we have already cut back on property staff for interstate trips due to our poor financial position.

I'm just trying to get you to look past the simple "lets buy technology" line and look at the full ramifications in an organisation that struggles to run in a financially responsible manner - if we were a financially stable organisation something like this really wouldn't be an issue, but you know what we are like as a club.

 

[Smilodon]

This is a good thoughtful thread. Pretty much every contribution. That can't be right, surely? Could bring the site, nay, the entire Internet, into disrepute.

A couple of thoughts from a poster who knows very little about football (except GO TIGES which is probably enough) but to my shame, knows far too much about IT.

First, every investment needs to be weighed up. A skint, broke organisation like RFC has to think very hard about what its priorities really are. Another rookie? Coaching staff? Looking after all those young kiddies just desparate to drink, socialise, drive, use mobile phones, associate with criminals, get their international baccaleaurate ... where does our IT investment fit in here?

IT should be on the list of things we are considering but without a realistic and shared sense of where we most need to improve we will likely be wasting our money.

Second, if we did chose the IT/Statistical investment, are we really ready to use it? Several posters have made this point. Is the coaching team up to it? How about the players? Is the license/use agreement and the distribution mechanism encouraging wide deployment within the club? For example, could individual players, not just nominated coaching staff, use the system? That kind of availability can make technology really take off and get used. If one player is studying the form of his expected opponent you can bet that others will be interested.

The first point is the most important. For the club, and for Club80, what are the most important areas for the club. Where will a dollar spent get the best return?