Big Men/Key Position... How are we going? | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Big Men/Key Position... How are we going?

GR

That's Mr. Richmond to you son!
Nov 21, 2004
937
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With the loss of Gaspar for a month, Schulz for 2-3 months, Thursfield for the year and with Stafford and Knobel due to come back any week now, I thought that I would have a quick look at our stocks.

203cm
Greg Stafford
* Last year for Greg, calf injuries are always harder to shake when you are at the wrong end of your career (eg. Hird) and at best will be up forward, with short bursts in the ruck/off the bench.

202cm
Trent Knobel
* Is a one dimensional ruckman who will be coming back from a broken leg. Not the worst bone in your leg to break (if there is such a thing) but the lay off will have an effect on his running capacity, and besides the crash & bash rucking technique, he is fairly limited, especially around the ground.

198cm
Adam Pattison
* It takes a little longer when you’re a big man to find your feet at AFL level, but in a few weeks, if/with the season as good as gone, it will be time (if not now) to throw him in at the deep end. When he has played so far, he really hasn't been able to get into the game. Benny Gale took awhile to find his feet, but the only way he got better was from being left on the field at AFL level, and I see Adam needing the same time and space to develop.
Angus Graham
* Rookie - Obviously needs time

196cm
Troy Simmonds
* Wants to be our number one ruckman, and as he has shown he is more than capable, but he needs a hand and this was clearly demonstrated against the Eagles on the weekend. Stafford in my opinion is a waste of time, so it is out of Knobel & Pattison to take up the number 2 spot. Knobel will be given a chance when he comes back, and if he doesn't show anything/much, then I'm almost certain that they will give Pattison a run at it for the remainder of the year.
Matthew Richardson
* I hear the calls for Richo to be given a go at CHB, but I think that it is way too late in his career for the move. We are stuck in the forward 50 roaming up to assist occasionally in the back half and up onto the wings, and that is about all we can do. His kicking is always going to be 50/50 at best and if we can get 50+ goals from the big fella per season, then so be it. How long will he go on? I think 2 more years (after this) at best, and depending on how the body holds up/injuries will be the other deciding factor.
Ray Hall
* What to do with Ray! Hasn't got the bulk/frame to be a ruckman, is hot and cold when he plays back (mainly lukewarm) and hasn't really ever been given much of a chance up forward... and I'm sure there is a reason for that! With the injuries to Gas, Schulz, Thursfield & to a lesser extent Moore, he will have to pick up one of the oppositions key forwards for a couple of weeks/months, which is a worry. He is better when he has the second or even third bets forward to cover, although he seems to do well on Barry Hall most times.

193cm
Darren Gaspar
* The hammy after coming off a serviceable year last year after the knee reconstruction. He has lost that yard (or two) of pace that had him all over the best forwards in the league during his prime, and the adjusted rules with regards to holding of jumpers and taking out of the hands/arms have done him no favours. Will be missing for the next 3-4 games, and then we will just have to wait and see. He turns 30 next month, and depending on how he plays out the year (and his contract) he may not be around for too much longer. At his best a required player and a great stopper, but the rules and his body have diminished his cat like ability and strengths.
Jay Schulz
* This was going to be his big year, coming off a solid pre season and as part of the secondary leadership group... but again injury strikes! Hasn't had the best of runs with injuries (or the police!) the ankle last year, and now the shoulder. This really needed to be the year where he stepped up, and with him missing for the next 2-3 months, it will be the second half of the season where he will really need to make his mark. Did stuff all in the first few games, and was given a new contract at the start of the year, but the time has come.

192cm
Cleve Hughes
* Looks like he could play a Matthew Lloyd type role for us in the future (without the diving) and will be in a battle with Jackson (see below) for the leading forward from the goal square role. Should get a go at sometime during the season, and I'm looking froward to that!
Dean Limbach
* I live more in hope than anything else for Dean, he was pick 52 in 2004 so some would say that we will not lose much if he doesn't come on, but I don't think that he will get too much more time after next year.

191cm
Patrick Bowden
* Has started off well, and obviously enjoys playing under Wallace and in the same team as his brother. The role of playing across half forward and up on the wings has suited him and he will hopefully develop into the role even further. Once Brown regains full fitness, and along with Pet, Richo and a combination of Lids, Bling, Cleve, Patto & Jacko... it should be a good mix.
Luke McGuane
* Like Limbach, will be given time (pick 36 in the same draft as Limbach) as he was a little younger than the others selected in 2004 and had the badly broken arm last year. Has a great attitude, but so do many players who don’t make it at this level.

190cm
Andrew Kellaway
* With the players going down around him, he has been exposed once again. Another player who like Gaspar has been not helped by the new rules. His delivery by foot is average at best, and although he is a good mark for his size and has great courage, like Hall he needs to be playing on the 2nd or 3rd best medium/tall in the opposition side. Turns 31 at the end of this year, and with his skills being his weakness, might find himself in trouble at years end.
Will Thursfield
* What a shame, there is/was so much potential here! His first game against the Swans, and his last game against the Saints were beauties. We will have to wait and see how he goes coming back from his operation, unfortunately with a knee reconstruction it can swing massively either way.
Kelvin Moore
* Injured at the moment, has shown glimpses, but has not really been able to settle in one position. Will be interested to see where he gets used when he returns, but he will need to have a good run at the Burgers before playing AFL again. Mid season return at best, and it will be interesting to see how he goes.

188cm
Joel Bowden
* It's kind of interesting that one of our key defensive men is the same height as three of our midfielders (Shane Tuck, Brett Deledio & Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls). More of a sweeper than a key position player, he has often had to play on much larger opponents (Tredrea, Brown, etc) and has done okay. With Gas, Thirsty & Sargent all out of the side, it will mean that he will have to take a key forward for at least the next month. He will more than likely have to play on Brown next week, with Carlton he will get Waite, Essendon Lucas and Sydney Davis or O'Loughlin. Needs some help down back to free him up, although Raines has swept well so far this year. Newman needs to help out a bit more down back as well with the taller players out.
Daniel Jackson
* Like Joel, just scrapes into the key position post, mainly due to his full forward duties so far this year. He and Hughes have been primed for the leading forward from the goal square role. Jackson has done an alright job thus far, and unfortunately for him, was required to plug some holes in the back half last week. Not a natural defender (as with Schulz IMHO) and although not too many players love playing down back, you can see he hates it with a passion. I'm sure if asked publicly he would tow the party line with the 'I'm just happy to get a game, where ever they play me' but he looks uncomfortable down there. And added to the fact that he doesn’t have the delivery by foot required to do the job well either, its just not the right option, although he is not a bad shot at goal. Another who has to do something this year, or he may be shown the door.

And then we really start to hit out mediums...

187cm
Mark Coughlan
Greg Tivendale
Dean Polo

186cm
Kane Johnson
 
I think it's time to chuck some young talls in the deep end.

Get Pattison and Hughes in the team asap. Although I'm not a Pattison fan of late, I think it's time we looked to the future.
 
Think its time to play Cleve Hughes in the fwd line and send P.Bowden to the back half to help with our shortage of tall backs
 
Great post an accurate assessments GR :clap

Unfortunately the cupboard is pretty empty.

Patto will definately get the call.
Not so sure about Hughes just yet. They might want to keep developing him at Coburg yet.

How far away is Moore? Does anyone know?
 
yes GPB, tuck is an option for CHF - i suggested this before the season started
he is tough, plays tall and can take a mark

would like to see him at CHF and p.bowden or J. Bowden at CHB
 
The change is incremental, three to six new players each draft and none to one reject per year
But thats all that can be achieved unless its a super draft year
So keep the best older players so that the new kids have someone to learn from and so they can have time to develop
Remember 2006 is year two, 2009 is year five of Terrys 5 year plan to get more years on his contract
So relax and enjoy the ride, a couple of older players are improving, a few of draft 2004 are starting to look OK, a few of draft 2005 are developing so lets see what happens
2006 might be a bit rough but that should help speed up the development of some of the kids

Keep the faith strong
 
My position on our stocks of Talls and Key Possie Players and i will be harsh and realistic.

Stafford too old slow and finished.

Knobel -can win a ruck hit out but does stuff all else cannot find the ball if his life depended on it.

Moore too small and not up to it.

Limbach too small and wont make it

Joel Bowden is a not a tall nor a KPP

Gaspar - Finished - old slow and too unskilled for todays footy

Kellaway - Games past him too


Juries out

Schulz - Unlucky with injury. He has talent but must produce when fit and must be slotted straight back in to the side and given 100 minutes week in week out for rest of season.

Pattison - i am concerned bout him, i saw him last year and thought he looked ok at times although i am not overly enamoured with him he has no idea at all especially at senior level andis not a KPP either forward or back is a ruck pure and simple. is slow, not overly agile (turns like an aircraft carrier) and has suspect foot skills.

McGuane - Also looks to have sopmthing bout him but like SChulz he has suffered injuries so must find confidence and form before he can really kick up a gear or be more accurately assessed.
Shining Lights -


Thursfield - the tigers first genuine specialist key back type for god knows how long and now stuffed with a possible career threatening knee injury which unfortunately had to be the Big Mac of kneee injuries, if comes back as he left the game this year in regards to pace and athleticism it will be a minor miracle.

Hughes - Yep this boy can play get him in and let him go.

Yep what a great line up of Quality Talls we dont have at RFC. :P
Basically the tigers have stuff all depth in the big man department and the major reason why i sooked about Clarke and Mills not being taken last year or Scott Meyer in the rookie draft as opposed to Howat ffs..what a waste of time. Getting Hughes was sheer blind luck not shrewd recruiting.

Sellar, Hansen, Thorp, Gumbleton - there is 4 Quality tall KPPs all over 194 195 cm specialist forwards and backs and the tigers must do everything possible to nab definately one if not 2 of these guys geeez a wooden spoon with the ol priority system this year for the tigers coulda afforded the tigers our own Riewoldt, Kozzie style of draft. DAMN but Miller woulda drafted 50 kg midgets anyway.
 
I was just thinking...

If we could snatch one of these big CHF/Ruck types at draft time and Bryce gibbs (we have to trade someone good) that would give us a future line up of something like this...

Raines.....FB: Thursfield...mCGuane
Hartigan..CHB: Schulz (12)Casserley
................__________
...............l PATTO (16)l
Lids (1)...l Gibbs (1)....l  ...oakleys (8)
...............l Polo (20)....l      
...............lTambo (4)...l
...............l---------------l
Meyer (12)...Gumbo (5)...Tuck
jacko .........Hughes(24)...brown (10)

I/C from:  simmo, Johnno, Cogs, Bowdo, Pettifer, newman, Hyde etc

...anyway I was just thinking
 
if we get a top 5 pick CHF 195 cms+
to go with these blokes

schulz 21 193
Thursfield 20 191
Pattison 20 198
Limbach 20 192
hughes 19 192
Graeme 19 200
McGuane 19 190

and another big guy with a later pick

That's 9 big young blokes

not too bad.
 
Tigers of Old said:
Great post an accurate assessments GR :clap

Unfortunately the cupboard is pretty empty.

Patto will definately get the call.
Not so sure about Hughes just yet. They might want to keep developing him at Coburg yet.

How far away is Moore? Does anyone know?

Thanks ToO

And I concur with you re Patto, although I do feel that Hughes needs to get a go sooner rather than later.

And Moore is still at least another week away from resuming with his hip injury.
 
Excellent summation, GR :clap

The cupboard IS fairly bare in the short term. Would certainly consider pressing Bowden P, and even Tuck into service in the backline.

Time to really stand up, Rayzor.
 
Look we have a lot of areas on our list that need addressing. Tall talent is an obvious one. Pace is yet another one.

This young fella, Sellar reads well. Is he a ruck or KPP?
 
GR said:
Ray Hall
* What to do with Ray! Hasn't got the bulk/frame to be a ruckman, is hot and cold when he plays back (mainly lukewarm) and hasn't really ever been given much of a chance up forward... and I'm sure there is a reason for that! With the injuries to Gas, Schulz, Thursfield & to a lesser extent Moore, he will have to pick up one of the oppositions key forwards for a couple of weeks/months, which is a worry. He is better when he has the second or even third bets forward to cover, although he seems to do well on Barry Hall most times.

He's certainly not a ruckman GR, but few at 196cm are - Simmonds is an anomaly and I'd suspect we'll start to see how much he relies on his leap as he ages. Hall has spent little time forward, but when he has he's delivered - one 4 goal haul and two of 3 goals...the most recent being rd.21 last year from half a game up forward. Our lack of genuine talls combined with injuries to what we do have has seen him used as a band-aid in the ruck and in defense, rather than giving him a decent trial across half-forward.

When you look at the stats impartially, Hall has done quite well as a defender - even at full-back despite the fact it really doesn't suit his attributes. In 2004 we were regularly smashed on the scoreboard, slaughtered in midfield, and yet Hall never had more than 6 goals kicked on him - it was often around the 4-5 average which is perfectly acceptable IMO for a side getting smashed week after week with 20+ goals kicked against them...I'd argue it was exceptional from a bloke who until that point had never played in defense and was exposed to the best forwards in the land week after week. Let's remember that he's a failed ruckman picked very late in the draft - by all reasonable standards he has given us far more than we should have expected.

He improved again in 2005 down back - had very few goals kicked on him despite frequent mis-matches on midget forwards (would be less than 2 goals a game averaged out) and really started to get his running game going across half back when able to be played there.

Every key defender (whether they are perceived as good bad or otherwise) in the league gets a hiding quite regularly - Mal Michael has had his share of horror games (but most only remember what he did with a three-time premiership midfield and a ton of support), Fletcher is similar, Clements is an all-Australian but has had some absolute wipeout games (already Ricciuto has kicked six on him this season - we all know what Brown did to him in one quarter last year), premiership full-back Leo Barry had six kicked on him in one quarter already this season by Lloyd...

The point is, when sides play badly and their midfield gets smashed, opposition forwards will kick goals - whoever they are on - it's just a fact of life we have to accept while we begin to build a decent, consistent midfield. Having a couple of key defenders who can save us at best a couple of goals a game now and again, and paying them an extra couple of hundred thousand dollars over what we pay a Hall type player is not going to make up for 8+ goal defeats IMO.

Once Gaspar is gone we can build a far cheaper backline and put that money where it really counts - winning the ball in the centre and converting the chances we get. When you rarely exceed 90 points a game and often score far worse, IMO it's wrong to think your defense is what's letting you down - it's the lack of being able to kick a winning score.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I think it's time we gave Deledio a crack at CHB for a season or two (the Chad Cornes mobile, skillfull attacking style CHB) and moved Hall to CHF running the corridor where his endurance, speed and penetration can be used to best effect.
 
Rayzorwire said:
As I mentioned elsewhere, I think it's time we gave Deledio a crack at CHB for a season or two (the Chad Cornes mobile, skillfull attacking style CHB) and moved Hall to CHF running the corridor where his endurance, speed and penetration can be used to best effect.

So you think that Hall is worth a go across half forward, and you suggest Lids going down back in a Chad Cornes style role, interesting! Firstly, Lids is along way from being able to play a Chad role. Although he is only 3cms shorter than Chad, he is a whooping 15kgs lighter and that's where I see the biggest difference. He really would need to pack on some weight until he could even be considered for the role, but then you will lose the pace and as you said, the midfield is where we really need to bolster to really help out our defence.

If Hall does play forward, then P. Bowden will more than likely be the player who will need to replace him down back. Will Hall play forward better than Bowden, and vice versa in defence? At least it's an option if one or either of them aren't getting the job done at either end. But I think that Lids in the backline (CHB) would be a true waste.
 
GR said:
Rayzorwire said:
As I mentioned elsewhere, I think it's time we gave Deledio a crack at CHB for a season or two (the Chad Cornes mobile, skillfull attacking style CHB) and moved Hall to CHF running the corridor where his endurance, speed and penetration can be used to best effect.

So you think that Hall is worth a go across half forward, and you suggest Lids going down back in a Chad Cornes style role, interesting! Firstly, Lids is along way from being able to play a Chad role. Although he is only 3cms shorter than Chad, he is a whooping 15kgs lighter and that's where I see the biggest difference. He really would need to pack on some weight until he could even be considered for the role, but then you will lose the pace and as you said, the midfield is where we really need to bolster to really help out our defence.

If Hall does play forward, then P. Bowden will more than likely be the player who will need to replace him down back. Will Hall play forward better than Bowden, and vice versa in defence? At least it's an option if one or either of them aren't getting the job done at either end. But I think that Lids in the backline (CHB) would be a true waste.

I reckon you might be going on Deldio's last season weight GR - he is 8-9 kg heavier than last year and shows it...I think he's very similar in bulk to Cornes. When we recruited him it was stated many times that he'd be capable of filling a role at CHF/CHB and he played juniors at CHF numerous times. Whether he's ready to do it at AFL level yet is debatable of course, I think it's worth a try in our present situation.

I have my team of the moment on another thread:

FB Newman Kellaway Humm
HB J Bowden Deledio Raines
C Hyde Coughlan Tambling
HF Jackson Hall P Bowden
F Pettifer Richardson Hartigan
Foll Simmonds Tuck Johnson
IC Brown Foley Stafford Krakouer

...with the full explanations here: http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20925.msg400365#msg400365

As you can see I would not and have not gone for P Bowden in defense just to move Hall, though I don't doubt there'd be games where Hall would have to shift to mark a bloke like Rocca (for example)...in which case I'd swing Deledio to CHF instead.

I don't think Deledio is a serious contributor in midfield yet - though he will get there - he's playing on a wing more than in the centre...I think we have other youngsters like Tambling who can do pretty well in that role.
 
Rob Murphy is listed at 186cm and 82kg (probably heavier now) and i would say is the best CHF in the AFL - AT THE MOMENT! Lids is about 188cm about 88-90kg and quicker than Murphy and also whould have the same - if not better hands the Murphy.........its definently food for thought.

I guess the difference is the dogs arent crying out for murphy in the middle...like we are for lids.
 
tha8ball said:
Rob Murphy is listed at 186cm and 82kg (probably heavier now) and i would say is the best CHF in the AFL - AT THE MOMENT! Lids is about 188cm about 88-90kg and quicker than Murphy and also whould have the same - if not better hands the Murphy.........its definently food for thought.

I guess the difference is the dogs arent crying out for murphy in the middle...like we are for lids.

I think Deledio will be benefited by not being tagged and roughhoused in the middle 8ball - much like Coughlan was in his younger days. He stepped up and made a difference in the centre, then got pummeled for it every week. Strange as it may sound, I think Deledio would develop into a better midfielder down the track by not playing there...playing a roaming KP role instead and getting some real confidence going while his body develops further. I can imagine him doing very well on the mobile CHF's in the Tarrant mould...and stretching a defense when he went forward.
 
Rayzorwire said:
tha8ball said:
Rob Murphy is listed at 186cm and 82kg (probably heavier now) and i would say is the best CHF in the AFL - AT THE MOMENT! Lids is about 188cm about 88-90kg and quicker than Murphy and also whould have the same - if not better hands the Murphy.........its definently food for thought.

I guess the difference is the dogs arent crying out for murphy in the middle...like we are for lids.

I think Deledio will be benefited by not being tagged and roughhoused in the middle 8ball - much like Coughlan was in his younger days. He stepped up and made a difference in the centre, then got pummeled for it every week. Strange as it may sound, I think Deledio would develop into a better midfielder down the track by not playing there...playing a roaming KP role instead and getting some real confidence going while his body develops further. I can imagine him doing very well on the mobile CHF's in the Tarrant mould...and stretching a defense when he went forward.

Yeah its a good point Ray Ray......id like to see it tried as well as Richie on a back flank...but who am i to say!!