Bye Bye Jack Higgins! | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Bye Bye Jack Higgins!

BT Tiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 5, 2005
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Warragul
Not sure that's quite right. He was brought into the side on three separate occasions in 2019. His finals series in the VFL was also pretty good. I think he was more the victim of a fundamental forward line restructure, in which Tom Lynch effectively took the spot of one of the smalls, and Dusty played more minutes forward.

In other words, Butler wasn't playing well enough to hold his place and the coaches determined we had better players for his position...
 
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spook

Tiger Legend
Jun 18, 2007
13,535
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Not sure that's quite right. He was brought into the side on three separate occasions in 2019. His finals series in the VFL was also pretty good. I think he was more the victim of a fundamental forward line restructure, in which Tom Lynch effectively took the spot of one of the smalls, and Dusty played more minutes forward.
Lynch took the spot of Caddy/Townsend.

I'm a Butler fan but his 2019 was poor. Another way of saying he was brought into the side three times is to say he was dropped three times.

His VFL grand final was good.

As for judging a player off Supercoach points, anyone who does that gets what they deserve.
 
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Number8

Tiger Matchwinner
Oct 12, 2010
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In other words, Butler wasn't playing well enough to hold his place and the coaches determined we had better players for his position...
Spin it any way you like; he was playing well enough to be brought into the team on three separate occasions.

Not sure why we're still debating this. Butler proved in 2020, again, that he is a fine player. Why do we need to be so defensive over one list misjudgment? We won't always get things right.
Lynch took the spot of Caddy/Townsend.
Caddy missed a lot of games in 2019 but still kicked 17 goals. He was very much part of the forward mix.

I sensed as 2019 went on the thinking evolved from the fleet of smalls to bigger, stronger bodies in the forward line. Dusty played some games almost permanently forward (e.g. the Brisbane QF) while Lambert and Bolton also rotated through there.

Ultimately, there simply wasn't a spot for Butler based on the preferred mix and game style.
As for judging a player off Supercoach points, anyone who does that gets what they deserve.
I think there is some value in Supercoach points as a performance measure, albeit as a slightly simplistic one.

Supercoach sets itself up to reward more than just effective disposals. It allocates points for a wide range of actions, especially those that play a part in determining the result of the game.

Hardball gets, intercepts and contested marks are highly valued. Things like score assists, spoils, shepherds and running bounces also contribute to a player's score.

It can sometimes fall down due to human error. The grey lines between what does/doesn't constitute a tackle, for example, means the awarding of points has become an imprecise art.

I wouldn't totally dismiss it, but nothing replaces what your own eyes tell you.
 

Tenacious

Tiger Champion
May 19, 2008
4,400
1,633
Spin it any way you like; he was playing well enough to be brought into the team on three separate occasions.

Not sure why we're still debating this. Butler proved in 2020, again, that he is a fine player. Why do we need to be so defensive over one list misjudgment? We won't always get things right

You’ve called it a misjudgement - personally I’d regard it as correct judgement
So it’s just different takes on a call made by the Club
 
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TigerPort

Tiger Superstar
Jun 29, 2006
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NSW
Why do we need to be so defensive over one list misjudgment?

Ultimately, there simply wasn't a spot for Butler based on the preferred mix and game style.
You rate the Butler to Saints trade a list misjudgement but then say there simply wasn't a spot for Butler on the preferred mix and game style.

If there wasn't a spot for him then he was surplus to needs and therefore any trade out cannot be misjudgement, just a normal business decision.

Hoping he gets back into form. I want to see all our ex-players playing well for their new clubs.
 
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zippadeee

Tiger Legend
Oct 8, 2004
35,774
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How smashed were we in November of 2017 to miss out on Allen and Ryan.
We would be going for 5 straight
 

Number8

Tiger Matchwinner
Oct 12, 2010
781
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You’ve called it a misjudgement - personally I’d regard it as correct judgement
So it’s just different takes on a call made by the Club
No problem with your view but an All Australian nomination for Butler in 2020 tells you it was a misjudgment. See next comment for context.
You rate the Butler to Saints trade a list misjudgement but then say there simply wasn't a spot for Butler on the preferred mix and game style.
While I think, pound for pound, Butler is a better player than, say, Jake Aarts, my gripe is the poor return we got for him at the trade table. We don't need to revisit ground covered in the Butler thread but that, to me, was the real misjudgment.
Hoping he gets back into form. I want to see all our ex-players playing well for their new clubs.
I genuinely love that you think that ... but it's not my style.

There is a malaise among some supporters. We're drunk on success. Maybe it's my age but I hate conceding ANYTHING to another club. If St Kilda had beaten us in that semi final last year, and Butler had played a key role, I would have been physically ill.

The day we lose our ruthless edge will be the day Rome burns.

A junk pick for Butler was a very bad outcome.
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
12,504
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Butler was effectively replaced by Bolton in 2019. and that is a pretty good trade up.
he was dropped after the Crows loss- we then won the next 9 including the GF. Butler played 1 of those wins and had 8 disposals.
he had lost his place in our best 22, in a spot we have competition for, and as a small forward aged 23 who wasnt considered to be in our best 22, he was traded. no big deal.

and as for the concern he could have won the game for the saints in the final against he us. he had 13 disposals, 1 goal. that is probably the best final he has played. in the 2017 finals, he averaged 8 disposals and kicked 2 goals in 3 comfortable wins. the chances of him ever being a match winner in a final are pretty slim i reckon.
 
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123cups

Tiger Superstar
May 1, 2016
2,303
1,842
Mate you hit the nail on the head :cupgoldSurprised our drafters didn't pick up on it because we saw it live and heard many complaints from fans on the below during his time at Richmond. From one of his draft profiles

"A potential improvement for Higgins is his hurt factor with ball in hand when playing in the midfield. Whilst he possesses some of the quickest and clean hands in the 2017 draft crop, Higgins’ kicks can often lack hurt factor – going sideways or being short passes to his teammates. In the TAC Cup this year, Higgins opted to pass it short effectively on average three more times per game than kicking it long to a teammate. Higgins’ kicking efficiency of 60 per cent in the TAC Cup and 69 per cent in the National Under 18 Championships was helped at times, by Higgins picking an easy option short or sideways rather than kicking long to a teammate or a contest".

So definitely you complete more % of your chip kicks instead of going longer and turning the ball over, or making a clanger, your Supercoach score goes up.

It reminds me of something from Konrad’s first premiership book, where the club’s focus in 2016 was to score 2 additional goals per match. I think from the captain down, everyone worked to hit their numbers. In 2017, Trent’s numbers dropped significantly. At a guess, the how and the why this happened might share something in common with Higgo’s lack of opportunity under Dimma, among other factors of course.
 

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
20,324
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Spin it any way you like; he was playing well enough to be brought into the team on three separate occasions.

Geezer played VFL footy well enough to get elevated up to seniors on three separate occasions, then failed to consolidate his opportunity n got dropped each time. It happens to players at all clubs, Geezer on song is a bloody decent player, Geezer having a brain fart is deer in the headlights cringe worthy, unfortunately he appears to be heading towards another one of these seasons this year, being in a mediocre team might save him to some extent..


I think there is some value in Supercoach points as a performance measure, albeit as a slightly simplistic one.

Supercoach sets itself up to reward more than just effective disposals. It allocates points for a wide range of actions, especially those that play a part in determining the result of the game.

Hardball gets, intercepts and contested marks are highly valued. Things like score assists, spoils, shepherds and running bounces also contribute to a player's score.

It can sometimes fall down due to human error. The grey lines between what does/doesn't constitute a tackle, for example, means the awarding of points has become an imprecise art.

I wouldn't totally dismiss it, but nothing replaces what your own eyes tell you.
Haaarrrgggh super coach!
Just check out how many Richmond premiership players make the experts super coach teams each year and it will tell you exactly the relevance of super coach to football. Dusty, Dusty, Dusty n maybe if they take an exuberant exotic super coach pick Dusty. It's all about amassing pretend points for players touching the footy in a pretend team.
 

Number8

Tiger Matchwinner
Oct 12, 2010
781
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Melbourne
Haaarrrgggh super coach!
Just check out how many Richmond premiership players make the experts super coach teams each year and it will tell you exactly the relevance of super coach to football. Dusty, Dusty, Dusty n maybe if they take an exuberant exotic super coach pick Dusty. It's all about amassing pretend points for players touching the footy in a pretend team.
Don't get muddled up here, TM.

The Supercoach experts play the game to win. That means choosing players who amass the greatest amount of points, and do it consistently. The effect of that is that good players in average sides will often score more heavily than good players in sides where the load is spread, and are therefore considered elite Supercoach players.

Richmond is under-represented in Supercoach not because Supercoach is flawed but because we tend to have 22 contributors across the field more often than not.

It is actually an endorsement of Supercoach that we are under-represented, if that makes sense.

I'd be more concerned if we had players who were doing well in Supercoach because it would mean we had reverted to relying on a handful and not the whole.
 
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123cups

Tiger Superstar
May 1, 2016
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Don't get muddled up here, TM.

The Supercoach experts play the game to win. That means choosing players who amass the greatest amount of points, and do it consistently. The effect of that is that good players in average sides will often score more heavily than good players in sides where the load is spread, and are therefore considered elite Supercoach players.

Richmond is under-represented in Supercoach not because Supercoach is flawed but because we tend to have 22 contributors across the field more often than not.

It is actually an endorsement of Supercoach that we are under-represented, if that makes sense.

I'd be more concerned if we had players who were doing well in Supercoach because it would mean we had reverted to relying on a handful and not the whole.

I get your point, which means SuperCoach doesn’t capture actions that contribute to team success. An accurate model would predict success.

But we already knew it’s just a general guide, I don’t think anyone treats it too seriously
 
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