China | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

China

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
8,878
13,650
Melbourne
Is it about great power struggle? Of course, undeniably it is. But built into that is supporting countries we find more common ground with regarding compatible values. Otherwise, what even is our raison d’être?

You cannot be serious.

Does this explain why the west supports Saudi Arabia, overthrew the elected Allende government in Chile for Pinochet, provides assistance to Egypt's military regime, funds military training in Bahrain, sells arms to Ethiopia, trains the military and sells arms to UAE and Yemen. The list goes on. No, it has little to do with compatible values, whatever they are in the context of a USA which actively seeks to deny voting rights to significant proportions of its population, it is all about geopolitical power.

As for the notion that the left somehow has a strangle hold on the idea that my enemy's enemy is my friend, gee, time to look at the West, most of the regimes and wars supported by the west are supported on the basis of keeping those the west opposes out of positions of power and influence, and who cares if our "friends" are dictatorial arseholes.

But, back on topic - given that the west is not going to confront China in the event of an invasion of Taiwan, and that given China is an emerging power in what is becoming a bi-polar world, what is your course of suggested action?

As for the Tasmania analogy, some months ago I suggested that this is how the Chinese would see the situation with Taiwan. Then, lo and behold, the Chinese ambassador comes out recently and makes the very same analogy. Seems I was right, they do see it like I said they would. You and I may not like this view of the situation, but that is the way the PRC views the Taiwan situation and it is always worth asking how things look from other perspectives.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,248
1,257
You cannot be serious.

Does this explain why the west supports Saudi Arabia, overthrew the elected Allende government in Chile for Pinochet, provides assistance to Egypt's military regime, funds military training in Bahrain, sells arms to Ethiopia, trains the military and sells arms to UAE and Yemen. The list goes on. No, it has little to do with compatible values, whatever they are in the context of a USA which actively seeks to deny voting rights to significant proportions of its population, it is all about geopolitical power.

As for the notion that the left somehow has a strangle hold on the idea that my enemy's enemy is my friend, gee, time to look at the West, most of the regimes and wars supported by the west are supported on the basis of keeping those the west opposes out of positions of power and influence, and who cares if our "friends" are dictatorial arseholes.

But, back on topic - given that the west is not going to confront China in the event of an invasion of Taiwan, and that given China is an emerging power in what is becoming a bi-polar world, what is your course of suggested action?

As for the Tasmania analogy, some months ago I suggested that this is how the Chinese would see the situation with Taiwan. Then, lo and behold, the Chinese ambassador comes out recently and makes the very same analogy. Seems I was right, they do see it like I said they would. You and I may not like this view of the situation, but that is the way the PRC views the Taiwan situation and it is always worth asking how things look from other perspectives.

DS
I think you’ve mistaken me as an all the way with the USA right winger. I look at these issues on their individual merits rather than in a polarising ideological way.

Western support of Saudi Arabia (and US Middle Eastern policy) is absurd, I 100%. agree. To highlight some of the absurdity. If one considers that the US was largely fighting against Saudi sponsored insurgents in Iraq, while fighting alongside Iranian sponsored militias, you couldn’t make that *smile* up, the irony of it. And these ironys in the likes of Afghanistan repeat over and over again.

But just because those issues are wrong, doesn’t mean supporting Taiwan’s right to existence in spite of their totalitarian, authoritarian neighbour is also.

And this is part of the problem I see. The US has expended so much political and physical capital on forays into battles of dubious moral value (as you correctly point out), that when a battle comes along that really matters (we seem to disagree of the degree of moral righteousness of this particular issue) there is nothing left in the tank. I have long bemoaned that the US had taken their eye of the ball. The old saying, “Pick your battles” resonates here.

And yes, the Chinese ambassador’s analogy of Tasmania is a gross false equivalence. Like I said before, in Chinese civilisation’s thousands of years existence, Taiwan has been ruled by a mainland Han Chinese regime for only 4 years in total. The idea that it is a natural historical appendage is utterly false.
 
Last edited:

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
25,835
12,733
As for the Tasmania analogy, some months ago I suggested that this is how the Chinese would see the situation with Taiwan. Then, lo and behold, the Chinese ambassador comes out recently and makes the very same analogy. Seems I was right, they do see it like I said they would. You and I may not like this view of the situation, but that is the way the PRC views the Taiwan situation and it is always worth asking how things look from other perspectives.

DS

Except it fails as an analogy, because we don't feel that way about Tasmania. It would work if we did feel outraged that they want to secede.

The Chinese ambassador uses the same terrible analogy that you did, but it has no power.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
8,878
13,650
Melbourne
Ant and Panthera, you both seem to have the same problem, a complete and utter lack of understanding of what I said.

So, I will repeat:

some months ago I suggested that this is how the Chinese would see the situation with Taiwan. Then, lo and behold, the Chinese ambassador comes out recently and makes the very same analogy.

Where did I say it was a good analogy?

Please point to where I said it was a good analogy. I said it was a way of understanding how the Chinese were thinking, nowhere did I say that I agreed with this, nowhere did I say it was a legitimate position, what I did say is that this is how the Chinese are seeing the situation with Taiwan.

The point is to understand where China is coming from and what they are likely to be thinking. I wasn't wrong.

Sorry to go on, but this is a huge problem. Not here and with you two in particular, everywhere. You try and explain the logic of an argument you don't necessarily agree with and suddenly everyone wants to take issue with the argument. I choose not to ignore the explanations for situations the world finds itself in. It is a bit like the criticism of so-called real-politic and Ukraine. Do I think the analysis is valid? Yes. Do I think the analysis is morally correct? No. There is a huge difference. The analysis in that situation attempted to explain Putin's actions. The analogy with Tasmania, whether you or I like it or not, has explanatory power in relation to the way China sees the Taiwan situation. You may think it is a crap analogy for the Chinese to make, but it is their thinking and their thinking is what we are trying to tease out here in an attempt to work out China's next moves and timing.

Panthera, my issue was with the idea of compatible values in relation to the west. The west talks a lot about the "Rules Based World Order" and I just think it is a complete crock. I don't think values come into this much at all, it is all about power.

DS
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,248
1,257
Panthera, my issue was with the idea of compatible values in relation to the west. The west talks a lot about the "Rules Based World Order" and I just think it is a complete crock. I don't think values come into this much at all, it is all about power.

DS
I don’t think it’s quite as simplistic as you suggest, reducing it simply down to power. We could keep going backwards and forwards on this. But I suppose we will irreconcilably agree to disagree on that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

MD Jazz

Nuance is hard to find
Feb 3, 2017
10,431
9,444
Fascinating. Not just what he said either, talk about body language expressing how one feels. Almost dismissive.
 

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
23,293
7,801
Heh Heh. Old Granpa Xi giving that young snot nose Trudy a clip round the ear n telling him to behave himself n not run around being a tattle tail.
 

spook

Tiger Legend
Jun 18, 2007
19,131
19,258
Melbourne
A couple of interesting reads today: