Christianity

[evo]

And any reasonable scholar of the Bible would know that God made a new covenant with man through Jesus Christ and the teachings of the New Testament explain that clearly. God no longer operates as He did with a very different, primitive human race as they were in OT times, and hasn't for 2000 years.

Yet you believe this is yet to come.

I can understand the pastors confussion.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

From a Christians perspective I am equally as frustrated and annoyed with these comments as you are, possibly more as it portrays my beliefs in an incorrect and bad light. The unfortunate thing is that many people consider these ridiculous and outlandish statements to be the beliefs of everyday Christians. Even worse, many will say that if God acts that way then I won't acknowledge Him, and fair enough. But clearly The Bible and life experiences teach us that God does not act in this way and these tragic fires are a result of either the disgraceful acts of one or many people (arson) or just plain bad luck and bad weather conditions. In this life bad things happen to good people without it being because of any acts-based judgment from God. He simply allows the events of life to occur.

I get so frustrated when crazy people like this get the press that they do when so many Churches and Christian based charities are doing great work in providing aid and support for those in need. That is where the focus should be, not on the minority of whacko's that make the rest of us look bad.

I understand your post Jay, but unfortuately it boils down to a 'No True Scotsman' defence. Both your and this pastor's position can be defended by reference to the Christian scriptures. You also both define yourself as Christians.

Like you I am absolutely disgusted by the pastor's words, yet if you believe what he believes, it is perfectly coherent.

Therein lies the problem with religious dogma.

 

[jayfox]

I understand your post Jay, but unfortuately it boils down to a 'No True Scotsman' defence. Both your and this pastor's position can be defended by reference to the Christian scriptures. You also both define yourself as Christians.

Like you I am absolutely disgusted by the pastor's words, yet if you believe what he believes, it is perfectly coherent.

Therein lies the problem with religious dogma.

And this is the reason why careful study of the Bible needs to be done otherwise you can make it say pretty much whatever you want.

I actually do agree with the link that you provided and I have been guilty of it myself at times. I guess that at times I need to realise that people are sinful by nature and that applies to Christians as well, so by way of that even Christians who should know better do terrible things. I do also think that many people use their beliefs as a tool to justify their own desires as well.

 

[jayfox]

Primitive humans (even though He'd made them this way) were less deserving of God's love and compassion?

No, not at all but they had different rules to modern humans and different penalties for breaking those rules. Just as their legal system was different to ours now. How many civil rights activists would be up in arms if we were crucifying people on a cross today?

 

[AngryAnt]

And this is the reason why careful study of the Bible needs to be done otherwise you can make it say pretty much whatever you want.

That guy would also claim his views are based on a careful reading of the Bible.

 

[Disco08]

No, not at all but they had different rules to modern humans and different penalties for breaking those rules. Just as their legal system was different to ours now.

God wouldn't be influenced by man's laws would He?

Sorry to be pushy but can you answer this one if you've got the time?

 

[Rosy]

Believers of Christianity believe that there is only one God and one Heaven.

Do believers of Christianity believe/accept that other religions believe in different Gods and things like reincarnation, karma, life after death, no belief in Hell or the devil etc.

 

[jayfox]

Is it fair to say He's doing this in every case, all the time?

I ask because if we're to accredit Him with miraculous interventions at all then it begs the question why wouldn't He intervene in cases like this.

Sorry I missed this one. God pretty much allows life to occur but we can ask Him specifically to intervene and if it is according to His purpose then He will. Sometimes he doesn't though and, at the time, we can't understand why. We can't understand why He would allow us to go through such pain and suffering when we have specifically asked Him to intervene. The Bible tells us that trials refine our faith and so sometimes God allows us to go through terrible suffering to build and strengthen our faith and reliance on Him. Going through suffering like this and maintaining your faith also proves that it is genuine. Some verses describing this -

1 Peter 1:6-9 - "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls."

Romans 5:1-5 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

I hope that answers your question mate, sorry I missed it the first time.

 

[jayfox]

Do believers of Christianity believe/accept that other religions believe in different Gods and things like reincarnation, karma, life after death, no belief in Hell or the devil etc.

We believe that they believe it, and accept that that is their right to believe those things but the Bible contradicts those teachings so we just don't believe that ourselves. We should all be very tolerant of each others beliefs, you just don't have to agree with them and we should all be able to share what we believe and why. It is then every individuals choice to make a decision and you can pray to God that He will reveal Himself to you without even knowing which one He is. If you are genuinely praying to a generic, unknown God asking for direction then the real God will answer you. Perhaps in His timing, not yours, but He will answer.

 

[jayfox]

God wouldn't be influenced by man's laws would He?

Sorry to be pushy but can you answer this one if you've got the time?

No, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that they were very different people to us and the times and day to day occurrences were very different to what we know today. Hence, man had different rules for Himself just as God had different rules for man. As man has changed and developed so did the rules that bound men, by both God and man.

 

[Rosy]

We believe that they believe it, and accept that that is their right to believe those things but the Bible contradicts those teachings so we just don't believe that ourselves. We should all be very tolerant of each others beliefs, you just don't have to agree with them and we should all be able to share what we believe and why. It is then every individuals choice to make a decision and you can pray to God that He will reveal Himself to you without even knowing which one He is. If you are genuinely praying to a generic, unknown God asking for direction then the real God will answer you. Perhaps in His timing, not yours, but He will answer.

Why then, considering what you've said, does God pilfer children from other beliefs if he accepts it's their right to those beliefs? That doesn't seem too "tolerant" to me. In fact it seems unbelievably self centred and arrogant.

 

[jayfox]

Why then, considering what you've said, does God pilfer children from other beliefs if he accepts it's their right to those beliefs? That doesn't seem too "tolerant" to me. In fact it seems unbelievably self centred and arrogant.

If there is only one God and the other option is Hell (as the Bible states) what would you rather him do? They can not go to be with their God as it does not exist. So should he take them to a place of perfection, happiness and communion with the one, true God or let them suffer for eternity? Surely it would be incredibly intolerant, unfair and cruel to send children, who haven't had the chance to make a choice for themselves, to Hell? Besides, if the child's parents were living in a way that was honoring to God, even if they had never heard of Jesus, they would be united with their parents in Heaven anyway, as I understand it.

I think that if you believe that God is an all loving, all knowing God then it is not too much of a stretch to believe that He will make the correct call, and the fairest call which is the right thing for each individual, in each circumstance. But, I am glad it is up to Him and not me.

 

[Disco08]

No, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that they were very different people to us and the times and day to day occurrences were very different to what we know today. Hence, man had different rules for Himself just as God had different rules for man. As man has changed and developed so did the rules that bound men, by both God and man.

Mankind has progressed very gradually, yet God only ever laid down two sets of rules - one extremely judgmental, intolerant and violent, the other loving and forgiving. I can't see why a loving God wouldn't just go with love and forgiveness from the start. Surely mankind's development would have benefited more from examples of non-violence than examples of genocide.

I hope that answers your question mate, sorry I missed it the first time.

Thanks Jay.

I guess I just have a very hard time believing God intervenes at all.

 

[jayfox]

Mankind has progressed very gradually, yet God only ever laid down two sets of rules - one extremely judgmental, intolerant and violent, the other loving and forgiving. I can't see why a loving God wouldn't just go with love and forgiveness from the start. Surely mankind's development would have benefited more from examples of non-violence than examples of genocide.

Yeah, I sometimes don't understand some of the stuff that happened in the OT either. I guess that we are not living in those times so it is hard to gauge what they were actually like and if the love and forgiveness rulings would have been right for those people? On the surface it seems so but I have faith that God knew best. I must admit that the timing of these OT queries is quite relevant as the OT has not been my strong point but 2 days ago my wife found a study book that she's been looking for, to give to me, for ages and I've just started doing a bit more reading about it. If anything worth posting comes to light I'll let you know.

Just on the two rules bit, throughout both Testaments God gives forewarning of changes to come, and the signs of the times in which such change will come. These times fulfill most, if not all, of the categories set aside by God for the next change in human history. And the shape that the worlds in, environmentally, financially, with respect to current-day weaponry, the beliefs (or lack of belief) of the people, it would not surprise me to see the next major event very soon.

Thanks Jay.

I guess I just have a very hard time believing God intervenes at all.

Mate, I can understand that. As a Christian you feel separated from God at times, whether by our own sin or by the fact that He isn't doing things in our way or by our timing. It's usually just as you've given up that He answers and then you feel like a fool for not holding on longer! ;D

 

[Rosy]

If there is only one God and the other option is Hell (as the Bible states) what would you rather him do? They can not go to be with their God as it does not exist.

What would I rather? I'm not a person who tires to force their beliefs on others or tries to influence their lives to my own advantage but I would rather God let the people whose beliefs he respects it's their right to have, and beliefs he tolerates, look after their own affairs.

I can't help thinking of God being lauded for the wonderment of designing the heart on this thread being the same God who's allowed such suffering and carnage this week.

Sometimes you've just got to pity laugh shrug your shoulders in astonishment.

 

[dukeos]

What would I rather? I'm not a person who tires to force their beliefs on others or tries to influence their lives to my own advantage but I would rather God let the people whose beliefs he respects it's their right to have, and beliefs he tolerates, look after their own affairs.

I can't help thinking of God being lauded for the wonderment of designing the heart on this thread being the same God who's allowed such suffering and carnage this week.

Sometimes you've just got to pity laugh shrug your shoulders in astonishment.

Check out Evo's Philisophical view on the woo thread. We have no apparent control over anything, everything has already been pre determined by events of the past (hope I got it right?)

I personally believe God lets us get on with things, and unfortunately there are evil @#%^&*!'s out there and we have to live with the consequences of there actions

 

[Disco08]

If you believe in the Christian God, that's not entirely true. He doesn't just 'let us get on with things'. 'Things' are actually playing out exactly as he designed them to, right down to the finest detail.

 

[Djevv]

Fear and guilt. The currency of organised religion.

I am disgusted that any of them would exploit the current situation, but perhaps not completely surprised.

Yeah, yeah, but why are you bringing it to light? Seems to me like a little more cheap point scoring/Christian bashing going on (again). This bloke is obviously way out of line and I hope his leadership disciplines him. All anyone should be doing at this time is shutting up and mucking in!

 

[jayfox]

What would I rather? I'm not a person who tires to force their beliefs on others or tries to influence their lives to my own advantage

Neither am I. Anyone who comes on this thread does so of their own accord and I don't hassle or PM anyone trying to convert them or even post any of this stuff on other boards.

but I would rather God let the people whose beliefs he respects it's their right to have, and beliefs he tolerates, look after their own affairs.

Fine, and he does let them look after their own affairs on Earth, as He does with everyone, but what does the one and only God do with them then, when they die? I can't understand why you would be upset at Him for taking them to a perfect place where there is no pain or suffering and they can experience and have a relationship with the one true God?

I can't help thinking of God being lauded for the wonderment of designing the heart on this thread being the same God who's allowed such suffering and carnage this week.

Sometimes you've just got to pity laugh shrug your shoulders in astonishment.

In a world where sin is present, bad things will happen. Prior to people sinning against God, the world was perfect and nothing like this ever happened. We turned against God and there were consequences for that. You may blame this on Adam and Eve and say it is not your fault but every person has done wrong and so we all deserve to live in this world where bad things happen. Heck, we've each even done a bad thing at least once in our lives.

So does God allow this carnage to happen? Yes, He does. But at least the families of those who have lost loved ones who are believers can take comfort that they are in a far better place, with no pain or suffering and that they will get to see them again one day.

I do find it interesting how, when a tragedy like this occurs, you get so many people saying things like "my thoughts and prayers are with you" and "God Bless" or "We pray to God that you will be okay". It is absolutely amazing how many times I've heard that on the TV reports. It's interesting that during times of crisis people search for divine help. I think that is built into us in some ways. Sometimes it takes massive, tragic events for people to want to search for God again.

 

[jayfox]

I personally believe God lets us get on with things, and unfortunately there are evil @#%^&*!'s out there and we have to live with the consequences of there actions

Great post and very well put.