Christianity

[jayfox]

Yeah, yeah, but why are you bringing it to light? Seems to me like a little more cheap point scoring/Christian bashing going on (again). This bloke is obviously way out of line and I hope his leadership disciplines him. All anyone should be doing at this time is shutting up and mucking in!

Agree completely Djevv. It is a real shame that an outlandish statement like this, which is in complete contrast to the view of every Christian I have spoken to, gets posted here instead of posting comments, articles or stories of the great work that many churches and Christian charities are doing with fund raising and support efforts. No wonder people are skeptical about becoming Christians if this is where the focus goes.

 

[Rosy]

I personally believe God lets us get on with things, and unfortunately there are evil @#%^&*!'s out there and we have to live with the consequences of there actions

I respect your personal views duke but certainly don't understand how innocent children and decent people are killed by the force of nature, paying the price as a consequence of some evil people in the world. If God can create all things bright and beautiful, and is given credit when things go well, why isn't he responsible for the carnage too? Seems to me some people on this thread are playing with a pretty stacked deck in regard to how they lay praise or pass the buck when it comes to God.

 

[Djevv]

I respect your personal views duke but certainly don't understand how innocent children and decent people are killed by the force of nature, paying the price as a consequence of some evil people in the world. If God can create all things bright and beautiful, and is given credit when things go well, why isn't he responsible for the carnage too? Seems to me some people on this thread are playing with a pretty stacked deck in regard to how they lay praise or pass the buck when it comes to God.

I think God permits evil that greater good can come. God doesn't cause the evil, but permits it. Evil happens to most of us at some point in our lives and that is hard to reconcile with a good God, but there is much goodness and pleasure to be gained in life. Most people think it is worth living in spite of the imperfection of this world. Those who escaped with only the clothes on their back were nonetheless grateful for their lives.

Often in the face of a tragedy like this God's grace abounds. People rediscover true values. People give selflessly. Governments and communities realise how complacent they have been and start making laws which prevent such tragedies re-occuring. The reason that I live in a strong cyclone coded house is the Cyclone Tracy tragedy.

Anyway hope this helps.

 

[Rosy]

How can you claim people giving and laws changing as Gods grace abounding yet not attributing him with the carnage. I don't know what greater good can come of innocent people dying djevv and I find the claim disturbing.

 

[Disco08]

Not sure that any of those things are caused by or require God's grace either Djevv.

 

[Rosy]

......I don't hassle or PM anyone trying to convert them or even post any of this stuff on other boards.

Post any of what stuff on other boards? If you mean mentioning God in discussions on other boards then that's not true.

 

[jayfox]

How can you claim people giving and laws changing as Gods grace abounding yet not attributing him with the carnage. I don't know what greater good can come of innocent people dying djevv and I find the claim disturbing.

Tragedy can awaken people from their slumber and make them re-evaluate life, even if you are not directly involved. For example, I have been struggling with generosity of giving of late after some bad experiences of being taken advantage of by people. When I saw the carnage of the fires it gave me a reality check and helped put things back into perspective. I'm lucky to have a safe family and solid home to live in but so many others have had that taken away from them. That is why I am now happy to give to them in their time of need. But prior to these fires I had lost some of that generosity and I was a poorer person because of it. No-one involved in the fires would know or care about that but they have helped me far more than I have helped them I reckon. That is what this situation has done for me and who knows what it may have done for many others. That is one reason that God allows bad things to happen. Even if sometimes the goodness to come out of it does not immediately help the person going through the anguish.

The short story is though that God does allow us to suffer trauma but He shares in our pain and is always there to comfort us, guide us and to talk to. Having gone through personal tragedy myself I found it a great comfort to have God always there to talk to and to know that, even though my life was out of control, He was still in control of everything and that anything that I was going through was only because He had allowed me to go through it and had given me the strength to get through it, even if at times I felt I didn't have the strength to get through it. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Rosy]

You feeling better for getting your generosity back and having given to those who've lost loved ones isn't going to make their life better than having their kids was.  It sounds selfish to weigh up the feeling you get from giving considering the heartbreak others are suffering.  I'll give all I can too...I only wish I could give their loved ones back.  :'(

 

[jayfox]

Post any of what stuff on other boards? If you mean mentioning God in discussions on other boards then that's not true.

What I meant was I do not have in depth religious discussions with anyone on any other thread. In fact, I have previously asked you to keep your religious questioning of me to this thread. On very rare occasions I have replied to some people if they make a comment directed to me re God on some threads, and may have used the very, very occasional throw away line about God in a joking sense, but I do not try to "force their beliefs" or "try to influence their lives to my own advantage" on any thread.

 

[jayfox]

You feeling better for getting your generosity back and having given to those who've lost loved ones isn't going to make their life better than having their kids was. It sounds selfish to weigh up the feeling you get from giving considering the heartbreak others are suffering.

I said that no-one involved with the fires would know or care. And I know it won't bring kids back, but does that mean I shouldn't have given?

And now I am selfish for having given and for having a reality check in my life that has shown me that I need to give more? Is everything about me negative in your eyes?

I'll give all I can too...I only wish I could give their loved ones back. :'(

Me too but neither of us can so we may as well give what we can and be thankful for any small positive that can come from this tragedy.

 

[Disco08]

I find the idea that God would allow any tragedy to happen (as opposed to intervening and stopping it from happening) just to help strengthen other people's faith or morals quite repulsive. Surely He could think of a better way?

 

[Rosy]

Is everything about me negative in your eyes?

I'm only discussing the opinions you posted so no need to be so precious. Don't forget I was responding to the comments you addressed to me.

I simply can't come to grips with the improvement in your life, but good on you, compared to the suffering of others. Bear in mind your comments were in relation to a question I asked djevv in regard to his claims about God permitting evil for greater good to come.

If you take that discussion, and my post you quoted, in context it certainly sounds like you were putting yourself up as an example of the greater good and God's love abounding I was questioning Djevv about in the first place, especially when he mentioned discovering true values.

 

[evo]

I find the idea that God would allow any tragedy to happen (as opposed to intervening and stopping it from happening) just to help strengthen other people's faith or morals quite repulsive.

I just find it absurd.

 

[Rosy]

I just find it absurd.

I find it repulsive, absurd and selfish.

 

[Liverpool]

Playing devil's advocate for God (there's a funny line):

I find the idea that God would allow any tragedy to happen (as opposed to intervening and stopping it from happening) just to help strengthen other people's faith or morals quite repulsive. Surely He could think of a better way?

Couldn't God class this similarly to..say...the Yanks dropping an atom bomb on Hiroshima.
"Collateral damage"
A few sacrifices of the innocent for the greater good.

Just a thought.

 

[evo]

I find it repulsive, absurd and selfish.

The selfish bit i find interesting from a philosophic/psychological perspective.

It seems to me everyone acts out of self interest, even when they are being very generous. ie ultimately there's no such thing as true altruism.

 

[Disco08]

Playing devil's advocate for God (there's a funny line):

Couldn't God class this similarly to..say...the Yanks dropping an atom bomb on Hiroshima.
"Collateral damage"
A few sacrifices of the innocent for the greater good.

Just a thought.

No Livers, no earthly analogy works with God. You see, if you replace "the Yanks" with God, suddenly you have the option of tweaking events slightly so that the war doesn't even start. In God's case, innocent people should never be required to suffer in order to achieve another of His goals.

 

[Djevv]

How can you claim people giving and laws changing as Gods grace abounding yet not attributing him with the carnage. I don't know what greater good can come of innocent people dying djevv and I find the claim disturbing.

If someone I loved died in a tragedy, I'd want good to come from it. It would help me come to terms with what happened and help me not to think of it simply as a tragedy. Are you saying that good can't come from tragic circumstances?

I don't see how God is responsible for the bushfires though. Surely that was the idiot that lit them!

 

[Rosy]

Evo we can play with words all we like but I mean selfish, or substitute self-centred even, in relation to God allowing tragedy to happen for his own ultimate benefit. I wouldn't think it selfish to prevent tragedy from happening if capable of doing so.

 

[Djevv]

No Livers, no earthly analogy works with God. You see, if you replace "the Yanks" with God, suddenly you have the option of tweaking events slightly so that the war doesn't even start. In God's case, innocent people should never be required to suffer in order to achieve another of His goals.

Surely this is Evo's determinist philosophy. Everything is determined by initial conditions.

You are forgetting free moral agency. We are all gods in our own minds - sometimes we set things in train which are outside God's original purpose.