Christianity

[Tiger Attack]

He's so busy saving all the good christians, that he has taken his eye off the ball in some pretty vital areas. I was reading about young girls being systematically raped in some areas of Africa as a mode of waging war.

Wouldn't god be better off saving those poor kids?

Or saving the men and organisations who are committing these atrocities, before they got started with it?

God allows sin to prosper for a time, but his judgement will come. God allows all men to make choices, for good or evil, with a warning that you will be judged on your choices one day.

What I don't understand is how you can blame God for something when you don't even believe in Him? Also, God's word clearly instructs us not to commit crimes like this and these people will be punished eternally for their sin. Far worse than any human punishment that could be brought against them.

I am not blaming god for evil, Jayfox, because I don't believe in god. My point is that if you do believe in god, then he is a pretty lousy god, letting all the bad stuff happen.

 

[jayfox]

Jay, for god to know the future, the future must be defined.

Also, if god knew the future and knew that the world was going to be corrupted against his will by the devil and adam's bad apple, why did he bother going ahead with it?

The future is known but has not yet happened Frisk-oh. It is not as if God has made these choices for us, otherwise how do you explain your, and many others, disbelief?

As for the apple, he allowed it to happen because he wanted us to choose him of our own free will rather than doing something because we were instructed to do it. Don;t forget though that whenever the world turns so morally against God a big event happens.
Adam and Eve were thrown out of the perfect Garden of Eden because of their sin.
The Flood destroyed most people on Earth because of their disbelief and sin (except Noah and his family as they were loyal to God).
Jesus came to Earth as the world was in disbelief and needed a saviour.
The world could be considered, as far as it's moral state is concerned, to be heading back to the days of Noah. This indicates that something big is going to happen sometime soon. The second coming of Christ as predicted in the Bible.

 

[evo]

So what. The Bible explains many things about God and the history of mankind. Whilst perhaps not the perfect analogy, it is about believing in something unseen that you can feel and see the effects of.

Science cannot explain God. There is science's greatest limitation. But, if science could explain God, then God would be completely comprehensible by human minds, which of course he is not, otherwise he wouldn't be God, would he?

Yes,we agree science cannot explain God.Therefore one then turns to the philosophers ,religous and not (like Neitzsche,Kant Aquinas) to consider God.

You know what I find most interesting about this thread is that is is becoming an atheists hideout. If you guys don't believe in God, and are so adament in your beliefs, then why would you spend so much time on a thread devoted to discussing him? Surely if in your minds he doesn't exist, he doesn't exist. Fullstop? Why bother debating the topic?
I debate the topic because I truly believe in Him and want as many people as possible to know His love for us and to have the chance to be saved from certain judgement. But I'm not sure what the deal is for you guys?

Because it is a search for 'truth'.All philosophers have to consider 'God' even if to only then confirm their atheism.You seem, throught this thread, to be under the impression that somehow the religiously pious have some sort of ownership on the question of God.

By way of example,let's say I'm a socialist, want to confirm socialism to myself-I still have to heavily consider captialism.I should read people through history who've studied and furthered both Socialism and Capitalism.

Also,because their are so many religious in society that the atheist have to co-exist we have to consider their beleifs.To understand Western society,you have to have an understanding of Christianity.It's shaped our(as a people) laws and 'values'

I can't speak for others,but I'm certainly not trying to 'recruit one back'.Just highlighting some alternate views.

Lots of varied thinkers through history have considered long and hard about the subjects in this thread.I see no reason to ignore all of them in favour of just one view expressed by the say the Pope or the Archbishop of Cantebury.

 

[jayfox]

I am not blaming god for evil, Jayfox, because I don't believe in god. My point is that if you do believe in god, then he is a pretty lousy god, letting all the bad stuff happen.

No. If you believe in God you can make sense of the mess that the world is in and know that he has a greater plan. It is predicted in the Bible that the world will be in this state prior to his second coming.

He is not a lousy God at all but a loving, caring God who wants nothing more than for us to live in peace for eternity.

 

[jayfox]

[
Yes,we agree science cannot explain God.Therefore one then turns to the philosophers ,religous and not (like Neitzsche,Kant Aquinas) to consider God.

Because it is a search for 'truth'.All philosophers have to consider 'God' even if to only then confirm their atheism.You seem, throught this thread, to be under the impression that somehow the religiously pious have some sort of ownership on the question of God.

By way of example,let's say I'm a socialist, want to confirm socialism to myself-I still have to heavily consider captialism.I should read people through history who've studied and furthered both Socialism and Capitalism.

Also,because their are so many religious in society that the atheist have to co-exist we have to consider their beleifs.To understand Western society,you have to have an understanding of Christianity.It's shaped our(as a people) laws and 'values'

I can't speak for others,but I'm certainly not trying to 'recruit one back'.Just highlighting some alternate views.

Lots of varied thinkers through history have considered long and hard about the subjects in this thread.I see no reason to ignore all of them in favour of just one view expressed by the say the Pope or the Archbishop of Cantebury.

Thanks for the response. At what point do you say that you have looked deeply enough into the options though and are happy with your standpoint? I, for example, dont need to read the Koran to believe Jesus is God's son, but I like the way that you look for an educated decision, even if it is the wrong one.

As for the philosophers, why take the viewpoint of mere men when you can get the viewpoint of God from his word?

 

[Disco08]

Adam and Eve were thrown out of the perfect Garden of Eden because of their sin.

Why would god make a perfect garden if he knew the people inhabiting it were going to sin and get thrown out?

The future is known but has not yet happened Frisk-oh. It is not as if God has made these choices for us, otherwise how do you explain your, and many others, disbelief?

lol, we're never going to be on the same page here. If it's known, it's defined. If it's unknown, it's undefined.

I explain people disbeliefs on the fact that (no offense) they have a hard time believing in the bible's fables given the scientific proof available.

 

[Rosy]

Are you saying that those who experience trauma in their lives should get a guernsey into Heaven? If so, then we all would. This life is full of many trials and heartaches but it is how we react to those that determines our character and ultimately our reward in Heaven.

No I didn't say that at all.

What I don't understand is how you think that a just God could reward someone who refuses to believe He even exists? That just doesn't make sense. To use another analogy, imagine committed many crimes and were facing a just judge. But you refuse to acknowledge him at all and are not at all repentant of your crimes. Would it be fair if he rewarded you amazingly for what you have done or, rather, punish you for your crimes?

I didn't say God should reward anyone and I've already said I don't refuse to believe he exists. I just don't believe for the sake of it and I haven't been given anything to make me believe.

I've only commented on what I understand is your interpretation and am discussing what you've posted. I haven't posted that God should do anything. It seems he has a mighty big ego going by your comments and is more interested in himself than mankind in general.

The judge is an interesting analogy. Say what he wants to hear and show remorse and you pass with flying colours. A good actor would have a better chance to get off than a genuinely remorseful person without good communication skills or representation. Reminds me of someone going to confession and thinking all matter of bad things are forgiven only to commit the same crimes and seek forgiveness again.

I'd rather the suffering on Earth was prevented for the many who experience it, some in such isolated places they've possibly never heard of god. I think they'd prefer some food and shelter than a ticket to heaven that they don't qualify for anyway.

 

[Tiger Attack]

I am not blaming god for evil, Jayfox, because I don't believe in god. My point is that if you do believe in god, then he is a pretty lousy god, letting all the bad stuff happen.

No. If you believe in God you can make sense of the mess that the world is in and know that he has a greater plan. It is predicted in the Bible that the world will be in this state prior to his second coming.

He is not a lousy God at all but a loving, caring God who wants nothing more than for us to live in peace for eternity.

I don't see how an omniptent god can ever justify haveing a 'greater plan' if he lets such horrendous things happend to innocent people. That's just a cop out and can't be proven!

 

[jayfox]

Are you saying that those who experience trauma in their lives should get a guernsey into Heaven? If so, then we all would. This life is full of many trials and heartaches but it is how we react to those that determines our character and ultimately our reward in Heaven.

No I didn't say that at all.

Okay, sorry if I misunderstood you.

I've only commented on what I understand is your interpretation and am discussing what you've posted. I haven't posted that God should do anything. It seems he has a mighty big ego going by your comments and is more interested in himself than mankind in general.

If that is the case then why would he have sent his own son to be mocked, beaten, tortured, spat upon die a horrific death on the cross to save us from our sins when, at any time, he could have called on thousands of angels to save him and destroy us like we deserve? He has given us a gift we truly do not deserve and we can either choose to accept or refuse this gift.

The judge is an interesting analogy. Say what he wants to hear and show remorse and you pass with flying colours. A good actor would have a better chance to get off than a genuinely remorseful person without good communication skills or representation. Reminds me of someone going to confession and thinking all matter of bad things are forgiven only to commit the same crimes and seek forgiveness again.

Problem is that God can see through any actors ability as he knows the truth in our hearts. You cannot fool God and a lot of people who pretended to be Christians will find that out on judgement day.

 

[Rosy]

If that is the case then why would he have sent his own son to be mocked, beaten, tortured, spat upon

I don't know if he did that so can't answer the question.  Then again going by your post it sounds a whole lot like Jesus had his second coming in the guise of Danny Frawley. :hihi

 

[jayfox]

If that is the case then why would he have sent his own son to be mocked, beaten, tortured, spat upon

I don't know if he did that so can't answer the question. Then again going by your post it sounds a whole lot like Jesus had his second coming in the guise of Danny Frawley. :hihi

Well then, taking into account all of the information at hand in order to make a decision, consider that if he did do that as the Bible tells us then how does that reflect on your statement that he is a God with a big ego who is more concerned about himself than mankind?

I actually don't get the Frawley joke?

 

[evo]

Thanks for the response. At what point do you say that you have looked deeply enough into the options though and are happy with your standpoint? I, for example, dont need to read the Koran to believe Jesus is God's son, but I like the way that you look for an educated decision, even if it is the wrong one.

I'm 'happy' with my standpoint now.But I'd like to think I'll continue to 'look' for a long time yet.

I've only got interested in the humanities the last few years.Only just brushed the surface.There is much for this grasshopper to learn yet.

As for the philosophers, why take the viewpoint of mere men when you can get the viewpoint of God from his word?

But I don't believe the Bible to be Gods word,I believe it to be mans.Similarly the Koran.

Given that,why would I only read Matthew, Mark Luke and John, when I can alos read so many others viewpoint as well?

 

[jayfox]

Given that,why would I only read Matthew, Mark Luke and John, when I can alos read so many others viewpoint as well?

That was a fair starting point, I would have thought. If I said "go and read the whole Bible", who is likely to do that?

 

[Rosy]

Well then, taking into account all of the information at hand in order to make a decision, consider that if he did do that as the Bible tells us then how does that reflect on your statement that he is a God with a big ego who is more concerned about himself than mankind?

I don't quite understand the question but to me your comments paint God as an egotist who chooses to let people suffer on earth then give those who believe in him eternal happiness in heaven.  

Out of interest what would you think if only those who agreed with the Mods opinions and savoured every word they posted were allowed to be members of PRE?

I actually don't get the Frawley joke?

You mentioned Jesus being sent here to be mocked, tortured and spat upon.  Seems to me Danny suffered the same fate.

Edit..well the mocked and spat upon...I think we suffered the torture.

 

[evo]

Given that,why would I only read Matthew, Mark Luke and John, when I can alos read so many others viewpoint as well?

That was a fair starting point, I would have thought. If I said "go and read the whole Bible", who is likely to do that?

Well a person has to want to,dont they.

If i was to say "go read Thus spake Zaruthustra"by Neitzsche- there would be even less who'd likely do that.

I reckon it's a better book.

 

[Tiger Attack]

Jayfox, what do you do when the Tigers play on Sundays? Do you go, or watch it on TV, or do you ignore it because it's on the Sabbath?

 

[jayfox]

Out of interest what would you think if only those who agreed with the Mods opinions and savoured every word they posted were allowed to be members of PRE?

Are the Mods perfect people and perfect in their judgement, understanding and knowledge of each situation? If so, then no problem at all.

You mentioned Jesus being sent here to be mocked, tortured and spat upon. Seems to me Danny suffered the same fate.

Edit..well the mocked and spat upon...I think we suffered the torture.

Okay, yeah that's pretty obvious now, except that it was his first coming, not his second, which hasn't happened yet, but will.

 

[jayfox]

Jayfox, what do you do when the Tigers play on Sundays? Do you go, or watch it on TV, or do you ignore it because it's on the Sabbath?

Well, the sabbath wasn't a Sunday for a start, it was a Saturday. I definitely go to or watch the footy on Sunday though. I just go to church first. Keeping the sabbath is about resting for one day a week and trying to use that day to spend some time reflecting on God. If I had a game myself on a Sunday, I would play and probably not go to church though. I may try to pray or read the Bible that night, however.

 

[Rosy]

Are the Mods perfect people and perfect in their judgement, understanding and knowledge of each situation? If so, then no problem at all.

Some of us might like to think so but I bet you wouldn't be impressed if you weren't welcome because you didn't worship us and obey our every word. :devilangel

 

[jayfox]

Are the Mods perfect people and perfect in their judgement, understanding and knowledge of each situation? If so, then no problem at all.

Some of us might like to think so but I bet you wouldn't be impressed if you weren't welcome because you didn't worship us and obey our every word. :devilangel

As I said, if you were perfect then I would have no problem with worshipping you as there has only been one who was perfect.