Christianity

[evo]

Just finished reading some Wittgentein,very enjoyable(Betrand Russell(he of flying teapot fame)-rated him highly).

Heres some thoughts from him on the subject of God and thinking.

How things are in the world is a matter of complete indifference for what is higher.God does not reveal himself in the world.

Can't agree with this Evo, as God revealed himself to the world through Jesus Christ who was by very nature God. He also reveals himself on a daily basis to those who truly want to find him.

Yes.Thats fair enough.I didn't expect you would.Just 'putting it out there' for anyone interested.

I think it would be fair to say Wittgensteins doesn't beleive in the Holy trinity eh.

Evo, on numbers 5,6 - If he was considering becoming a pastor of a church then don't you think that his persuit of God may have been a little more advanced than simply "Think maybe returning to the bible might help him out." and "Think better of it." For someone to look into Christianity, to read parts of the Bible or to attend some church services would be to "think maybe of returning the bible for help" but to consider leading other people to Christ and becoming the head of the church involves a far deeper pursuit, I would have thought.

See bold above

 

[Tiger Attack]

Foxy, I was recently at a musical event where there were some hot gospel bands playing. From time to time in the songs some of the people in the crowd would leap forward yelling out the 'jesus is lord' stuff.

Others like me tended to stay in our seats and enjoy the music.

Do you think this is the difference between your lot and my lot? ie. The christians are moved by the message and want to leap about the place to prove it, whereas the atheists are just kicking back enjoying the show?

 

[evo]

As crazy as that sounds it makes sense.

Wanna buy a bridge?I have a nice one overlooking Sydney Harbour. ;D

 

[Tiger Attack]

:clap

 

[jayfox]

I attended a Christian church for some time Jayfox-on-the-run (mostly to watch a good friend in the band who has since left - the band btw was awsome!) until it finally dawned on me that the pastor himself was so full of his own ego and ability as a "faith healer" that he systematically took control of the congregation who were innocent believers in his ability to "heal" via the teachings of Christ. It wasn't about the Bible, it was totally about him and his ego - fed by the masses. This guy is the biggest manipulative and egotistical fraud I've ever met (and I've met a few in the investment banking industry!) but the frightening thing is that his congregation adore him, worship him and just want to be with him. I would not be in the least bit surprised to see him and his faithful Christian congregation at some point down the track on 6pm news in a seige type situation. Its just a matter of time IMO, this guy is a true masterful nutter, all in the name of Christ.

Fair enough but my advice would be not to turn your back on God but to find another church to attend. Just because you came across one crazy pastor shouldn't deter you from trying to find a respectable church to worship God in, if you faith was real. If what you say about this pastor is true, and the service is about worshipping him and not Christ, then he is decieving people and God will judge him accordingly. I continue to say it but please Judge Christianity by the founder, Jesus Christ, and not some people who 'claim' to be Christians but are really using this title for their own evil ambitions. If you can find fault in Christ's teachings then I'd like to see it. In fact, I'd even change sides.

You would be surprised at how many people I know who are genuinely clairvoyant (not the shonky $2 shop variety, but those who indeed have the capacity to elevate themselves to higher vibrational frequencies) who also follow the teachings of Christ. My best friend is a born again Christian, and get this, is also a scientist who is developing extraordinary intuitive abilities!! We are multi-dimensional beings Jay. We only use 5% of our brain! All I'm saying is don't limit yourself by your own thinking or beliefs buddy.

Let me ask you this question about your friends Stripes. You say that they "follow the teachings of Christ" but do they 'exclusively' follow his teachings and consider him to be the son of God who came to Earth to sacrifice himself on the cross to save us from our sins, and then defeated death by rising again on the third day? And do they believe that the only way to the father is through faith in Him? If not, then they are not Christians, you can be sure of that.
If they claim to believe all of these things and yet also claim to be Clairvoyants then you can be sure that they are deceiving people, probably even themselves, as well.

 

[jayfox]

Yeah, like programming us to only do good

Wasn't that what he originally wanted? If it wasn't for the serpent deceiving Eve wouldn't mankind not have known evil and lived forever? Therefore no judgment and no suffering. I still find it odd that if god knew the serpent was going to deceive Eve and alter the history of mankind against god's will, that he planted the tree in the first place? Why didn't he kill the serpent first? Why did he create a talking serpent anyway?

Sorry Duckman, I have just come back to this one. He didn't remove the tree or kill the serpent as he wanted us to follow him by our own choice not because we had no other option. I would have thought that is pretty simple. In order to have a true relationship with someone they need to have the choice of whether or not to be in it as well as you.

 

[Disco08]

But that doesn't remove the fact that he knew what was going to happen yet went ahead with it anyway.

Why make the serpent if he knew it was going to deceive Eve, who would later deceive Adam? Being deceived into doing something is different to making a conscious choice isn't it?

 

[jayfox]

What a shocking God he is for allowing us to make, and be judged by, our own choices.

That's not the point at all. Are you saying that god couldn't have created a world without pain, suffering or evil and given us free will at the same time?

I've come to the conclusion from reading more of the bible, that the christian/catholic god is the cruelest character in all of fiction. I can't see how anyone can draw a conclusion otherwise based on the 'facts' presented in the bible. As you quoted Jay, the gospel prophecises that only a few will find their way to heaven. Obviously god, able to see the future, knows this before he even creates the universe. So therefore he's made a conscious decision to create billions upon billions of creatures in his own image knowing that they are doomed to spend eternity suffering in hell.

How is that not the point? Yes, I am saying that God could not have created a world in which we have the choice to do good or evil (free will) and made it without pain or suffering. It is not possible to have the free choice to do evil and have an evil-free world at the same time. The pain and suffering in this world is all as a result of man's sin. Every person will all be judged on their sins when they die and only those who have believed in Jesus, and truly tried to follow his teachings, will be saved. It says in the Bible that "Faith without works is dead" so all of those people who claim to believe but don't act accordingly have "dead faith".

Also if God is the "cruelest character in all of fiction", which is a massive statement, then how do you explain that He only wants people to love each other, that he sacrificed his only son, to a cruel and horrific death, to provide us with a way to receive forgiveness from our sins and everlasting life? He taught us to Love each other as much as we love ourselves, to honour and respect your parents, not to kill each other, not to be unfatihful to your partner, not to steal, not to lie and not to covet what others have but to be happy with what we are given, amongst many other teachings. How in the world can someone who teaches all of these things be considered so cruel? I simply don't understand it. If you can explain this to me using Christ's teachings rather than examples of sinful people in the world, then you will have converted me. If you can't, which I know you can't because His teachings are perfect, then you have misjudged God.

 

[jayfox]

But that doesn't remove the fact that he knew what was going to happen yet went ahead with it anyway.

Why make the serpent if he knew it was going to deceive Eve, who would later deceive Adam? Being deceived into doing something is different to making a conscious choice isn't it?

So are you saying that Adam and Eve had no choice but to follow the serpent? They had a choice as God, who created them, loved them and provided for them, had told them not to eat from that tree. In fact, it was the only instruction he gave them! So I think it's fair to say they had the choice.

Yes, he must have known what would happen but wanted to have a relationship with those who, by their own free will, want to have a relationship with him.

 

[Rosy]

......God revealed himself to the world through Jesus Christ who was by very nature God.

....and consider him to be the son of God ...

Can you please explain how God's son is God jay? Confusing.

 

[jayfox]

Perhaps it was the amphetamines?

Or the repressed homosexuality busting to get out?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

Thanks Panthera, why am I not suprised?

On this guy, his own words sum him up best. He was a "deceiver and a liar". He turned away from the teaching s of Jesus in his own life whilst preaching them to others. A very dangerous and foolish situation to be in. Hopefully he gets himself sorted out since he has been exposed.

 

[jayfox]

Foxy, I was recently at a musical event where there were some hot gospel bands playing. From time to time in the songs some of the people in the crowd would leap forward yelling out the 'jesus is lord' stuff.

Others like me tended to stay in our seats and enjoy the music.

Do you think this is the difference between your lot and my lot? ie. The christians are moved by the message and want to leap about the place to prove it, whereas the atheists are just kicking back enjoying the show?

No the difference is that you don't think that the band exists even though you can hear the music.

 

[Disco08]

Yes, he must have known what would happen but wanted to have a relationship with those who, by their own free will, want to have a relationship with him.

But he's god. What god wants, god gets, surely? If he wants people to live in paradise not knowing evil then surely that's what results, especially given he has the power to foresee his mistakes. If he wanted people to live in pain and suffering, confusion and despair but have the chance to reach heaven through his son then surely he could have just made the world as it was post Eden.

 

[jayfox]

Yes, he must have known what would happen but wanted to have a relationship with those who, by their own free will, want to have a relationship with him.

But he's god. What god wants, god gets, surely? If he wants people to live in paradise not knowing evil then surely that's what results, especially given he has the power to foresee his mistakes. If he wanted people to live in pain and suffering, confusion and despair but have the chance to reach heaven through his son then surely he could have just made the world as it was post Eden.

No God doesn't always get what he wants. the Bible tells us that he wants none to perish and yet, by their own choice, many do.
I don't know how to explain it any clearer Crisco, in order to have a relationship with someone they must be able to have the choice of whether to participate or not. In order to do that God had to allow people to choose Him or not, essentially to choose good or evil. If people were not given that choice then there is no possibility of a relationship. Those who choose not to have a relationship with God do not deserve to go to heaven, as why should a just God accept someone into Heaven, who lives their life not even believing in Him or following His word?

To answer a couple of other queries from above - God is perfect and he doesn't make mistakes so there is no need to forsee them. Any pain and suffering in the world is a direct result of man's sin. Remember, before sin, people lived in the Garden of Eden which was a perfect place. Sin caused us to have to live with suffering.

He did make the world as it is post Eden.

 

[Disco08]

No God doesn't always get what he wants.

God is perfect and he doesn't make mistakes

If he never makes a mistake how does he not always get what he wants?

How in the world can someone who teaches all of these things be considered so cruel? I simply don't understand it. If you can explain this to me using Christ's teachings rather than examples of sinful people in the world, then you will have converted me. If you can't, which I know you can't because His teachings are perfect, then you have misjudged God.

Because what he teaches is irrelevant. He already knows that most people aren't going to listen to him and are going to hell. That's why he's cruel, because in his mind he already knows how many souls are destined to spend eternity suffering in hell before he even begins creating us, yet he still goes ahead and does it. By his choice, and nobody else's, do billions of souls go to hell. You can say we all had the choice, but thats also irrelevant. He knew the results.

 

[jayfox]

No God doesn't always get what he wants.

God is perfect and he doesn't make mistakes

If he never makes a mistake how does he not always get what he wants?

Because he wants a relationship with us but, if he always got what he wants (i.e. us not to reject him) then it wouldn't be a relationship based on choice would it?

Because what he teaches is irrelevant. He already knows that most people aren't going to listen to him and are going to hell. That's why he's cruel, because in his mind he's already knows how many souls are destined to spend eternity suffering in hell before he even begins creating us, yet he still goes ahead and does it. By his choice, and nobody elses, do billions of souls go to hell. You can say we all had the choice, but thats also irrelevant. He knew the results.

So it is God's fault, after he has given us perfect teaching and a choice of whether to follow him and those teachings or not, that many people reject him and end up in Hell, even though he gave us clear instructions of how to avoid that situation. Well, I think it's time that we took some responsibility for our own actions. You have contradicted yourself in the statement above by saying that "By his choice, and nobody elses, do billions of souls go to hell." and then in the following sentence saying "You can say we all had the choice".
Put it this way Disco and be honest with me. If I am right in this debate and God does exist and he is the God of the Christian Bible, do you really think that when you face Him in judgement, you could say that you never had a choice of whether to accept Him or not?

 

[jayfox]

......God revealed himself to the world through Jesus Christ who was by very nature God.

....and consider him to be the son of God ...

Can you please explain how God's son is God jay? Confusing.

The Trinity can be confusing Rosy, even for many Christians to understand. Probably the easiest way to explain the Trinity is to use an analogy - On your body, you have a hand (hopefully two!), you also have a leg (again, hopefully two!) and you have a head (hopefully only one!). These are all seperate parts of the body but they are also all a part of the body and the body is not complete without them. God, as a whole,is represented by the Body and the 3 aspects of God are represented by the 3 different parts. God the Father (the head if you like) is God, Jesus the son (the hand, for example) is God, The Holy Spirit (the leg) is God. All of these things have a seperate identity but are all part of the one body (God).

It is confusing for our minds to understand but I hope this helps explain it for you.

 

[Tiger Attack]

Foxy, I was recently at a musical event where there were some hot gospel bands playing. From time to time in the songs some of the people in the crowd would leap forward yelling out the 'jesus is lord' stuff.

Others like me tended to stay in our seats and enjoy the music.

Do you think this is the difference between your lot and my lot? ie. The christians are moved by the message and want to leap about the place to prove it, whereas the atheists are just kicking back enjoying the show?

No the difference is that you don't think that the band exists even though you can hear the music.

No. I heard the music, I could see the band and I took photos as well. And I saw the christians testifying ( a bit annoying actually) and I enjoyed the show.

 

[jayfox]

Foxy, I was recently at a musical event where there were some hot gospel bands playing. From time to time in the songs some of the people in the crowd would leap forward yelling out the 'jesus is lord' stuff.

Others like me tended to stay in our seats and enjoy the music.

Do you think this is the difference between your lot and my lot? ie. The christians are moved by the message and want to leap about the place to prove it, whereas the atheists are just kicking back enjoying the show?

No the difference is that you don't think that the band exists even though you can hear the music.

No. I heard the music, I could see the band and I took photos as well. And I saw the christians testifying ( a bit annoying actually) and I enjoyed the show.

Clearly that was a tongue-in-cheek response to your earlier question. What were the bands that you saw if you don't mind me asking?

Sorry that the Christians ruined a Christian gig for you though.

 

[Disco08]

So it is God's fault, after he has given us perfect teaching and a choice of whether to follow him and those teachings or not, that many people reject him and end up in Hell, even though he gave us clear instructions of how to avoid that situation. Well, I think it's time that we took some responsibility for our own actions. You have contradicted yourself in the statement above by saying that "By his choice, and nobody elses, do billions of souls go to hell." and then in the following sentence saying "You can say we all had the choice".

You're not getting my agrgument Jay. God knew beforehand that billions of souls were going to hell. Why would god even make mankind if he knew something like that in advance if he wasn't cruel? This is not about man's choice, this is about god's choice.

Because he wants a relationship with us but, if he always got what he wants (i.e. us not to reject him) then it wouldn't be a relationship based on choice would it?

The original question still stands though. If he wanted mankind to know evil why did he tell Adam and Eve not to touch or eat from the tree of knowledge? If he wanted us to have a choice, why did he make the first humans immortal?