Cleve Hughes - Premiership Player | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Cleve Hughes - Premiership Player

Have just read this thread in its entirety. Some interesting debating taking place.  :hihi

Some stats to add fuel to the fire. Columns are matches, total goals, best & average goals, with and without Richo. The last column is the difference in average goals for that player when Richo is not in the team (+ means the player does better when Richo is not there):

Player                RM  RG RB  RA NM NG NB  NA Diff
-----------------------------------------------------
Justin Murphy          9   3  3 0.3  3  6  5 2.0 +1.7
Jeff Hogg             14  35  7 2.5  1  4  4 4.0 +1.5
Paul Hudson            2   0  0 0.0  1  1  1 1.0 +1.0
Jay Schulz            44  36  3 0.8  5  9  6 1.8 +1.0
Aaron James           14   2  1 0.1 16 17  5 1.1 +0.9
Bill Nicholls          9   1  1 0.1  1  1  1 1.0 +0.9
Ezra Poyas             4   1  1 0.3  5  5  3 1.0 +0.8
Kelvin Moore          23   7  2 0.3  1  1  1 1.0 +0.7
Bruce Lennon           9   3  1 0.3  1  1  1 1.0 +0.7
Lionel Proctor        17   2  1 0.1  3  2  2 0.7 +0.5
Chris Naish           72  99  4 1.4 20 38  5 1.9 +0.5
Matthew Rogers       144  99  5 0.7 53 64  5 1.2 +0.5
Stephen Jurica         4   4  3 1.0 14 21  5 1.5 +0.5
Justin Charles        40  23  2 0.6 14 15  3 1.1 +0.5
Danny Meyer           13   4  2 0.3  4  3  2 0.8 +0.4
Troy Simmonds         49  40  3 0.8  4  5  2 1.3 +0.4
Ben Holland           92  81  6 0.9 33 43  5 1.3 +0.4
Matt White            16   2  1 0.1  2  1  1 0.5 +0.4
Wayne Campbell       195  92  3 0.5 64 52  4 0.8 +0.3
David Rodan           51  30  2 0.6 14 13  3 0.9 +0.3
Thomas Roach           8   0  0 0.0  3  1  1 0.3 +0.3
John Rombotis          7   0  0 0.0  6  2  1 0.3 +0.3
Justin Plapp          16  19  5 1.2  2  3  2 1.5 +0.3
Andrew Kellaway      127  12  1 0.1 45 18  2 0.4 +0.3
Brent Hartigan        32   2  1 0.1  3  1  1 0.3 +0.3
Mark Chaffey         122  17  2 0.1 44 17  2 0.4 +0.2
Paul Broderick       121  57  3 0.5 48 33  3 0.7 +0.2
Ben Harrison          55  26  4 0.5 19 13  4 0.7 +0.2
Brad Ottens           88  98  5 1.1 41 54  6 1.3 +0.2
Andrew Mills          20   6  1 0.3  8  4  1 0.5 +0.2
Craig Biddiscombe     20   1  1 0.1 24  6  2 0.3 +0.2
Joel Bowden          187 116  5 0.6 48 38  4 0.8 +0.2
Craig Ednie            3   1  1 0.3  4  2  2 0.5 +0.2
Shane Morrison         6   2  1 0.3  2  1  1 0.5 +0.2
Michael Gale          74  14  2 0.2 17  6  3 0.4 +0.2
Jason Torney          76   6  1 0.1 42 10  2 0.2 +0.2
David Bourke         120  20  2 0.2 50 16  4 0.3 +0.2
Brendon Gale         129 112  6 0.9 51 52  5 1.0 +0.2
Andrew Krakouer       86  84  5 1.0 16 18  5 1.1 +0.1
Aaron Fiora           57  16  2 0.3 21  9  2 0.4 +0.1
Nathan Bower          40   7  1 0.2 25  8  2 0.3 +0.1
Matthew Knights      129  45  4 0.3 56 27  3 0.5 +0.1
Rory Hilton           59  36  4 0.6 23 17  3 0.7 +0.1
Paul Bulluss          66  12  3 0.2 26  8  2 0.3 +0.1
Clinton King          38   5  2 0.1 20  5  1 0.3 +0.1
Shane Tuck            64  31  2 0.5  5  3  2 0.6 +0.1
John Howat            33   1  1 0.0  7  1  1 0.1 +0.1
Stuart Edwards        18  24  5 1.3  7 10  4 1.4 +0.1
Ray Hall              79  21  4 0.3 20  7  1 0.4 +0.1
Chris Hyde            73  27  4 0.4  9  4  2 0.4 +0.1
Darren Gaspar        162  15  2 0.1 45  7  1 0.2 +0.1
Nathan Brown          44  79  6 1.8  7 13  4 1.9 +0.1
Marc Dragicevic       28  14  3 0.5 20 11  3 0.6 +0.1
Nathan Foley          45   9  2 0.2  4  1  1 0.3 +0.1
Stuart Maxfield       38  34  6 0.9 17 16  3 0.9 +0.0
Royce Vardy           14   1  1 0.1 20  2  1 0.1 +0.0
Steven Sziller        27   2  1 0.1 11  1  1 0.1 +0.0
Scott Turner          73  11  4 0.2 25  4  2 0.2 +0.0
Damien Ryan           25   5  3 0.2  5  1  1 0.2  0.0
Ty Esler               7   0  0 0.0  1  0  0 0.0  0.0
Barry Young            6   0  0 0.0  1  0  0 0.0  0.0
Dale Weightman         5   0  0 0.0  1  0  0 0.0  0.0
Simon Fletcher         5   0  0 0.0  1  0  0 0.0  0.0
Brad Fox               3   0  0 0.0  1  0  0 0.0  0.0
Ben Haynes             3   0  0 0.0  2  0  0 0.0  0.0
Simon Eishold          2   0  0 0.0  1  0  0 0.0  0.0
Jamie Tape            53   3  1 0.1 22  1  1 0.0 -0.0
Andrew Raines         47   1  1 0.0  4  0  0 0.0 -0.0
Greg Tivendale       139  94  4 0.7 46 30  2 0.7 -0.0
Nick Daffy           112 127  6 1.1 49 54  5 1.1 -0.0
Dean Polo             21   6  3 0.3  4  1  1 0.3 -0.0
Adam Houlihan         46  34  5 0.7 20 14  3 0.7 -0.0
Ben Moore             17   8  2 0.5  7  3  1 0.4 -0.0
Chris Bond            76  24  4 0.3 22  6  2 0.3 -0.0
Ross Funcke           23   1  1 0.0  4  0  0 0.0 -0.0
Mark Coughlan         68  31  3 0.5 15  6  2 0.4 -0.1
Duncan Kellaway      137  11  2 0.1 43  1  1 0.0 -0.1
Mark Neeld            14   9  2 0.6 12  7  4 0.6 -0.1
Ashley Prescott       64  12  2 0.2 26  3  1 0.1 -0.1
Stuart Wigney         11   1  1 0.1  3  0  0 0.0 -0.1
Patrick Bowden        21  13  3 0.6  4  2  1 0.5 -0.1
Brian Leys            23   3  2 0.1  1  0  0 0.0 -0.1
Jamie Elliott          7   1  1 0.1  2  0  0 0.0 -0.1
Chris Newman          96  14  2 0.1 15  0  0 0.0 -0.1
Tim Fleming           28   9  2 0.3  6  1  1 0.2 -0.2
Greg Dear             34   8  1 0.2 19  1  1 0.1 -0.2
Trent Knobel          20   4  1 0.2  1  0  0 0.0 -0.2
Tim Livingstone        5   1  1 0.2  1  0  0 0.0 -0.2
Kane Johnson          87  26  2 0.3 11  1  1 0.1 -0.2
Craig Lambert         14   3  1 0.2  1  0  0 0.0 -0.2
Adam Pattison         31   7  1 0.2  4  0  0 0.0 -0.2
Trent Nichols         12  13  5 1.1  7  6  2 0.9 -0.2
Leon Cameron          56  31  4 0.6 28  9  2 0.3 -0.2
Tony Free             35  17  3 0.5  4  1  1 0.3 -0.2
Greg Stafford         61  71  4 1.2 13 12  3 0.9 -0.2
Ben Marsh              4   1  1 0.3  3  0  0 0.0 -0.3
Ty Zantuck            49  18  5 0.4 19  2  1 0.1 -0.3
Robert Powell         49  48  5 1.0  7  5  2 0.7 -0.3
Richard Tambling      49  38  4 0.8  4  2  1 0.5 -0.3
Justin Blumfield      17   5  1 0.3  2  0  0 0.0 -0.3
Todd Breman            3   4  2 1.3  1  1  1 1.0 -0.3
Mark Merenda          52  49  5 0.9 23 13  5 0.6 -0.4
Matthew Dundas         7   4  2 0.6  7  1  1 0.1 -0.4
Wayne Hernaman        14   6  2 0.4  1  0  0 0.0 -0.4
Kayne Pettifer        88 111  4 1.3 15 12  4 0.8 -0.5
James Thiessen         6   3  2 0.5  1  0  0 0.0 -0.5
Brett Evans           22  23  3 1.0  6  3  1 0.5 -0.5
Clay Sampson          19  16  2 0.8  8  2  1 0.3 -0.6
Luke Weller            5   3  2 0.6  2  0  0 0.0 -0.6
Ashley Blurton        11   7  3 0.6  3  0  0 0.0 -0.6
Matthew Manfield       3   2  1 0.7  3  0  0 0.0 -0.7
Brett Deledio         59  40  5 0.7  3  0  0 0.0 -0.7 

These players have never played without Richo in the side since his debut:

Player                RM  RG RB  RA
-----------------------------------
Matthew Richardson   256 743 10 2.9
Marty McGrath          4   6  5 1.5
Cleve Hughes          10  11  3 1.1
Jack Riewoldt          8   7  3 0.9
Shane Edwards         16  11  2 0.7
Mark McQueen           6   4  2 0.7
Kent Kingsley          3   2  1 0.7
Ben Hollands           8   5  2 0.6
Matthew Francis        4   2  1 0.5
Cameron Howat         20  10  2 0.5
Chris Sullivan         8   4  2 0.5
Stephen Ryan           4   2  1 0.5
Graham Polak          22   8  3 0.4
Daniel Jackson        36  11  3 0.3
Ian Herman             4   1  1 0.3
Haydn Robins           4   1  1 0.3
Ewan Thompson          4   1  1 0.3
Todd Menegola          5   1  1 0.2
Robert Schaefer        7   1  1 0.1
Jake King             19   2  1 0.1
Mark Graham           20   2  1 0.1
Steven McKee          20   1  1 0.1
Will Thursfield       22   0  0 0.0
Luke McGuane          16   0  0 0.0
Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls 7   0  0 0.0
Craig Smith            6   0  0 0.0
Anthony Banik          5   0  0 0.0
Daniel Connors         4   0  0 0.0
Simon Dennis           2   0  0 0.0
Jason Baldwin          2   0  0 0.0
Angus Graham           2   0  0 0.0
Stuart Steele          2   0  0 0.0
Allister Scott         1   0  0 0.0
Nick Jewell            1   0  0 0.0
Jeremy Humm            1   0  0 0.0
Daniel Donati          1   0  0 0.0

I don't claim theses stats favour one side of the debate or the other, as they lack context, e.g.

- many players have played only a handful of Richo-less games
- quality of opposition not taken into account
- Holland and Schulz, to name a couple, played significant portions of their career in the backline when Richo was in the side

etc, so make of them what you will.

Being of the pro-Richo mindset though, I will point out that Hogg, James, Jurica, Holland, Plapp, Naish, Harrison & Bourke departed for greener pastures and didn't set the world on fire even without Richo 'holding them back'. Even Ottens only averages about the same number of goals at Geelong as he did at Richmond when playing alongside Richo (1.19 to 1.11).
 
Great effort on the stats, 12428.

In its simplest terms
58 players did worse when Richo was around.
8 players nil effect.
47 players did better when Richo was around.

I imagine only a marginal effect on our overall scores.

I suppose the next steps would be to compare:
1. The overall team scores on average per game sans & avec Richo.
2. The net goals per game kicked by Richo v those lost to other players.
3. We could also isolate who from the above lists were key forwards, resting ruckmen, flankers, crumbers & midfielders.
 
Phantom said:
I imagine only a marginal effect on our overall scores.

I suppose the next steps would be to compare:
1. The overall team scores on average per game sans & avec Richo.
Click to expand...

With Richo we average 89 points, without 89 points. "A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" - Churchill could've been speaking about Richo.

It'd be easy to conclude we're no worse off without him, but ponder the following figures for the leading career goalkickers on 2007 lists:

Player Gls Wth W/O Diff
-----------------------------------
Matthew Lloyd 829 104 97 +7
Matthew Richardson 743 89 89 0
David Neitz 628 95 81 +14
Chris Grant 554 97 95 +2
Fraser Gehrig 540 95 86 +9
Barry Hall 539 92 94 -2
Brad Johnson 462 98 85 +13
Michael O'Loughlin 461 95 97 -2
Jeff Farmer 460 92 88 +4
Warren Tredrea 458 97 88 +9
Scott Lucas 431 102 106 -4
Anthony Rocca 395 96 86 +10
Brendan Fevola 387 92 95 -3
Peter Everitt 382 92 82 +10
Russell Robertson 379 97 88 +9
Daniel Bradshaw 363 103 105 -2
Lance Whitnall 348 94 81 +13
James Hird 338 105 99 +6
Shannon Grant 333 99 94 +5
Chris Tarrant 332 96 90 +6
Jason Akermanis 327 104 101 +3
Matthew Pavlich 312 90 71 +19
Scott Welsh 300 97 101 -4

Would anyone seriously suggest that Barry Hall has had a net negative effect when he's played? There are a huge number of variables in play, and while it's fun (for me anyway) to look at figures like this, it's simplistic and dangerous to draw conclusions from them. I'd compare this type of stat to clubs' winning percentages with and without a given player, which suggest the inclusion of Buckley, Ricciuto, West, Riewoldt etc. are detrimental to their teams' winning chances. Trivia.
 
Freezer said:
Phantom said:
An improving 22yo should be given every opportunity to reach his very best.
Click to expand...

And if he/they can't reach their very best at the lower levels, what then...? Give them a game just for the hell of it...?
Click to expand...

If you were ever going to do it 2007 was the year to try.

Of course it's not entirely his fault but playing Richo as our key forward isn't winning us games.
3.5 wins for the year and yet another wooden spoon is evidence of that.

Many argued McGuane and Thursfield would be hard pressed to replace Gaspar & Kellaway too. By season's end those two veterans were but a distant memory as Generation Next stepped up. Little doubt Wallace has committed to youth in defence but not yet up front.

I can see where Phantom is going with this.
Richo isn't getting any better but neither are our struggling young forwards who are languishing at Coburg.
The absence of older players forces youth to sink or swim and whilst Schulz and Hughes may not be good enough we have to at least give them every opportunity to fail.
It's the only way they'll ever improve.

When Wallace first arrived, he said something along the lines of 'We'll do what's best for the Richmond Football Club, not Matthew Richardson'. I hope he remembers those words because no individual is bigger than the team.
 
And if Wallace had move Richardson aside to try his secret weapon dynamic duo people would have been swinging from the rafter crying that Wallace had tanked.

The sooner people realise that Richardson cannot be held responsible for ineptitude of some of our so called up and coming forwards the better off we will all be.

Gale, Holland, and Ottens could all work in with Richo so why can't Superman Schulz and Hitman Hughes get a kick at Coburg in a side that made the grandfinal. Jack seems to be able bag goals of 4 or so regularly.

The whole point of this post was that Hughes was dropped to the Coburg Seconds for the GF but some how this is Richo's fault.

Hughes has plenty of time, but can't say the same for Schulz.

Players at this club have not played well for years, because they are not good enough, not because someone else his holding them back or starving them of opportunities. If Richo wasn't there, they would be getting games on the basis of we have no one else, not because they have been setting the world on fire at Coburg.

Hell even Pettrified can still manage to kick goals in a forward line that is supposedly so Richo dominated.

Stop making excuses for failed recruits. (I don't inlcude Hughes in this lot as he is still very young, but needs to lift his intensity)

The unfortunate reality is that these type of players have miles to go before they will start putting pressure on Richo or any other forward for that matter.

But before they can do that they have to be able to get a kick at Coburg first.
 
Phantom said:
Yes, but Patto improved when given higher responsibility.

From this position, if Pattison development was to be curtailed by being dropped back to Coburg for the sake of the inclusion of a 30yo makes little sense.

An improving 22yo should be given every opportunity to reach his very best.

We know what our current position is at Richmond.
We finished bottom.
The experienced players at Richmond were supposed to lead us into the finals.
By round 6, all the objectives at Richmond had to be altered.
The experienced players at Richmond had let us down again.

The only two positives for 2007 were:
1. The Coburg finals.
2. The performances of younger players.

Our younger players are our future.
Their earliest progression can only be team lifting.

Richo is merely a part of our history still existing in our present but not a part of our future.

I wonder what specialist coaching role Richo will take on when he comes to hand down his knowledge to our juniors when he retires?
Will the Tiger admin be looking at postioning Richo post-retirement, into a role, the same way that Collingwood are looking to do with Buckley?
Click to expand...

Another interesting comparison used to support your argument. Once again, I'm struggling to make the connection. Some of the greatest players of all time have never coached. This discussion is not about Richo's v Buckley's ability to coach post retirement. It's about Richo's ability as a footballer and the inability of some of our young key forwards to get a kick. Richo will make a shithouse coach after he retires, I agree. I guess what you are trying to say is that if he has little to offer as a specialist coach post retirement, then he has little to offer the side as our key forward in which young players will learn to play the game, and eventually take over. This argument would eliminate some of the best of all time; Ablett, Lockett, Dunstall, Brereton, Carey etc etc

His primary role is to follow the team plan, get a kick, set the right example and help the side win a game of football. Here's a thought, maybe Shulz and Cleaver should just go out there and follow HIS example.

First the Australian cricket team, then Hird now Buckley ... sheesh!!!
 
gustiger12 said:
And if Wallace had move Richardson aside to try his secret weapon dynamic duo people would have been swinging from the rafter crying that Wallace had tanked.

The sooner people realise that Richardson cannot be held responsible for ineptitude of some of our so called up and coming forwards the better off we will all be.

Gale, Holland, and Ottens could all work in with Richo so why can't Superman Schulz and Hitman Hughes get a kick at Coburg in a side that made the grandfinal. Jack seems to be able bag goals of 4 or so regularly.

The whole point of this post was that Hughes was dropped to the Coburg Seconds for the GF but some how this is Richo's fault.

Hughes has plenty of time, but can't say the same for Schulz.

Players at this club have not played well for years, because they are not good enough, not because someone else his holding them back or starving them of opportunities. If Richo wasn't there, they would be getting games on the basis of we have no one else, not because they have been setting the world on fire at Coburg.

Hell even Pettrified can still manage to kick goals in a forward line that is supposedly so Richo dominated.

Stop making excuses for failed recruits. (I don't inlcude Hughes in this lot as he is still very young, but needs to lift his intensity)

The unfortunate reality is that these type of players have miles to go before they will start putting pressure on Richo or any other forward for that matter.

But before they can do that they have to be able to get a kick at Coburg first.
Click to expand...




The unfortunate reality is that you wouldnt have a clue about the forward line past or future gus.
 
It's not Richo's fault and this thread is starting to give those 2 lazy *smile* an excuse for their poor efforts.

100% Richo is not at fault. 100% Schulz and Hughes are Lazy!

I'm quite surprised that Phantom is so misinformed on this situation.

Greg Miller is well aware of this and I can tell you that they are both on borrowed time. Miller even commented to those of us who attended the draft night last year that Hughes in particular needed to improve his work rate. 12 months on and he has got worse and the coaching staff know it. As supporters we should look forward to 2008 without Hughes because he will continue to go backwards. Unfortunately at the end of 2008 he will be delisted, not because he wasn't good enough, but because he has the wrong attitude and very poor motivation. Some senior players have already had words with him but they themselves don't think the message is getting through.

Time is now for Cleve!
 
I wonder how Richo would go at Coburg. Probably not so good in the imposing shadows of Shulz and Cleve.
 
he wouldnt go so well if they were spraying their passes into the fwd line like a crazy dog having a *smile* in a park.
 
Six Pack said:
he wouldnt go so well if they were spraying their passes into the fwd line like a crazy dog having a *smile* in a park.
Click to expand...

I dunno - he's kicked over 700 goals with a lot of Tiger players doing that...! :hihi
 
crackertiger said:
It's not Richo's fault and this thread is starting to give those 2 lazy sh!ts an excuse for their poor efforts.

100% Richo is not at fault. 100% Schulz and Hughes are Lazy!

I'm quite surprised that Phantom is so misinformed on this situation.

Greg Miller is well aware of this and I can tell you that they are both on borrowed time. Miller even commented to those of us who attended the draft night last year that Hughes in particular needed to improve his work rate. 12 months on and he has got worse and the coaching staff know it. As supporters we should look forward to 2008 without Hughes because he will continue to go backwards. Unfortunately at the end of 2008 he will be delisted, not because he wasn't good enough, but because he has the wrong attitude and very poor motivation. Some senior players have already had words with him but they themselves don't think the message is getting through.

Time is now for Cleve!
Click to expand...
Spot on Cracker, Steamee Cleavage needs to pull his finger out and play football instead of poncing about because he is an AFL player.
Young Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack will burn Steamies arse as he blasts past him in 08.
As for the big Yowie Schulz, pretty sure he will be leaving in a few weeks if we can score any sort of deal at all for him.
Disappointed with him going but he just hasn't grabbed his chances.
 
Freezer said:
Six Pack said:
he wouldnt go so well if they were spraying their passes into the fwd line like a crazy dog having a *smile* in a park.
Click to expand...

I dunno - he's kicked over 700 goals with a lot of Tiger players doing that...! :hihi
Click to expand...
;D
 
crackertiger said:
Greg Miller is well aware of this and I can tell you that they are both on borrowed time. Miller even commented to those of us who attended the draft night last year that Hughes in particular needed to improve his work rate. 12 months on and he has got worse and the coaching staff know it. As supporters we should look forward to 2008 without Hughes because he will continue to go backwards. Unfortunately at the end of 2008 he will be delisted, not because he wasn't good enough, but because he has the wrong attitude and very poor motivation. Some senior players have already had words with him but they themselves don't think the message is getting through.
Click to expand...

Well that makes it even more dumbfounding that Miller signed him to a new 2 year deal midseason. :headscratch
 
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