Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split and merged] | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split and merged]

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
2
What are your opinions as a true christian on contraception, abortion and stem-cell research Jay?
 

Panthera tigris FC

Full Blown Chimp Crush
Oct 28, 2004
4,808
2
Torquay
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

jayfox said:
Panthera tigris FC said:
Of course it is all about interpretation. That has been the source of most of the debate in this thread.

You can't start using the 'No true Scotsman' approach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman) if they are using the Bible to justify there actions. They are just as much Christians as the pacifist, benevolent Christians. They all share that defining quality - belief in Christ as the son of God.

Can't agree here PTCruiser. A 'true' Christian does not just believe that Christ is the son of God. Even Satan himself believes that and he is certainly not a Christian! A 'true' Christian not only believes that Christ is the son of God but they will also do their absolute best to follow the teachings of Christ as well. If they truly followed those teachings they would know that things like - killing abortionists in order to save babies, honor killings, suicides etc. are completely against Christ's teaching and are therefore not the actions of a 'true Christian. After all a 'true' Christian is a person devoted to following the teachings of Christ. If their actions conflict with those teachings then you can be sure that they are not a true Christian. Any person whose actions in life defy that of Christ's teachings will not be entering Heaven, I can assure you of that. The Bible is quite clear on this and says that many will 'claim' to have been Christians in front of God on judgement day but He will reply "Get away from me, I never knew you!"

I think they would disagree with you JayMan. In their interpretation of the Bible they are doing God's work. Hence all of the bible quotes on the heinous website that I posted earlier.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
51
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Never heard that 'one true scotsman' before.'Tis always nice to get new material.
 

jayfox

Tiger Champion
Nov 11, 2003
4,829
0
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Legends of 1980 said:
It's hard to keep up. Every time I look into this thread, about 5 new pages have been added.
Firstly, jayfox, I admire your persistance, rightly or wrongly, in trying to explain your views and answering everyone's questions. If their is a God, then you have earned bonus points with your work here :)
I know you don't claim to know everything about God but I was curious about the following quote from a view pages back.
jayfox said:
rosy23 said:
Not sure if this has been covered but how did Adam and Eve and a spare rib or two evolve into the massive human population we have today?

In answer to your Adam and Eve question - Adam and Eve had many children both male and female. Adam himself lived to 930 years so they could potentially have had an enormous number of children. As unusual and sick as it may seem now, those brothers and sisters, and then nieces and nephews, etc. would have married each other and had children. Now we consider that to be very distasteful behaviour now (I certainly do) but things were done differently back then. (Adam living until 930 for example.) It was not until later in the Bible (in the time of Moses) that God instructed people not to marry their relatives and that he reduced the amount of time that a person would live for. This was as the world was becoming more populated and so there was no need for it anymore.
In the first generation, marrying one's sibling was the only choice. At that time, genetic degeneration was virtually non-existent, so neither was the issue of birth defects which so clouds that practice now.

My questions are: God would have known that marrying and having children was wrong, otherwise why did he change the rules down the track. And in anticipation of your response ;), if he was/is all powerful, why was this the only choice? Surely he could have created more people as he did with Adam and Eve?

Thanks for your question Legend. The truth is that I am not sure why God created only 2 people in the beginning. I gues he created man as he wanted a relationship with him but realised that man needed a companion of his own kind too, hence the creation of women. We also know that God wanted people to populate the Earth as Genesis clearly tells us this. Why didn't he just make a population of 100 or so and let them multiply without the need for marrying siblings etc.? I don't know but one day I will ask Him. I would assume that because genetic degeneration was not such a problem back then, it avoided problems like birth defects etc. Also the people of the time would not have known any different so it would not have seemed unusual to them. God certainly does have a starting point in most things though and probably wanted us to have a clear line of human ancestory to be able to refer back to, starting with the very first two people. i.e. we are all descendants of Adam and Eve. If there were hundreds created then we could all claim to be descendants of different people.

On the flip side, if you believe in evolution then you believe that we all developed from bacteria initially anyway. You also must believe that the first people to ever evolve were either having sex with apes or half-man/half ape type creatures. I know what I think is worse!
 

jayfox

Tiger Champion
Nov 11, 2003
4,829
0
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Panthera tigris FC said:
jayfox said:
Panthera tigris FC said:
Of course it is all about interpretation. That has been the source of most of the debate in this thread.

You can't start using the 'No true Scotsman' approach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman) if they are using the Bible to justify there actions. They are just as much Christians as the pacifist, benevolent Christians. They all share that defining quality - belief in Christ as the son of God.

Can't agree here PTCruiser. A 'true' Christian does not just believe that Christ is the son of God. Even Satan himself believes that and he is certainly not a Christian! A 'true' Christian not only believes that Christ is the son of God but they will also do their absolute best to follow the teachings of Christ as well. If they truly followed those teachings they would know that things like - killing abortionists in order to save babies, honor killings, suicides etc. are completely against Christ's teaching and are therefore not the actions of a 'true Christian. After all a 'true' Christian is a person devoted to following the teachings of Christ. If their actions conflict with those teachings then you can be sure that they are not a true Christian. Any person whose actions in life defy that of Christ's teachings will not be entering Heaven, I can assure you of that. The Bible is quite clear on this and says that many will 'claim' to have been Christians in front of God on judgement day but He will reply "Get away from me, I never knew you!"

I think they would disagree with you JayMan. In their interpretation of the Bible they are doing God's work. Hence all of the bible quotes on the heinous website that I posted earlier.

I agree that it is a heinous website, but they are not doing God's work. They need to look more deeply into the scriptures to see what the true will of God is rather than just plucking verses here and there to support their case. Even the atheists can do that! ;) As I said before, the Bible is very clear that many will be deceived into thinking that they are doing God's work, but it is clearly against his instructions and therefore is not the will of God. They will face Him in judgement and will not be rewarded.
 

Panthera tigris FC

Full Blown Chimp Crush
Oct 28, 2004
4,808
2
Torquay
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

jayfox said:
I agree that it is a heinous website, but they are not doing God's work. They need to look more deeply into the scriptures to see what the true will of God is rather than just plucking verses here and there to support their case. Even the atheists can do that! ;) As I said before, the Bible is very clear that many will be deceived into thinking that they are doing God's work, but it is clearly against his instructions and therefore is not the will of God. They will face Him in judgement and will not be rewarded.

The problem is that they have as much supporting the assertion that their interpretation is correct as you do that your interpretation is.

When an atheist plucks a quote out it is often to show a perceived flaw from a non-believer, whereas that website uses biblical quotes to justify the action of a murderer. It is more heinous than using biblical quotes to ostracise homosexuals, but it follows the same logic.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
51
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

If God had've created 100 it would've at least saved him writing that begatting section.

Not a fella for expediency ,i guess.
 

shawry

Tiger Legend
Apr 14, 2003
5,519
132
Adelaide, Australia
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

I am interested to hear the views of you all on where ghosts etc fit into the scheme of things assuming htey even do exist. How can they get to us from heaven or are they stuck in between as many claim? Does the bible say anything about this?
 

jayfox

Tiger Champion
Nov 11, 2003
4,829
0
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Disco08 said:
What are your opinions as a true christian on contraception, abortion and stem-cell research Jay?

I have no issue with contraception. It is usually Catholics who are against it's use.

I am against abortion as I consider it murder. Once life begins, who are we to take it away. What is the difference between killing an unborn child, who has every part (forming) of the human body, and killing a brand newborn baby? I just don't see it. We fight so hard to keep premature babies of 26 or so weeks alive and yet happily kill unborn babies who are not that much younger, and yet, if someone went into a hospital and deliberately killed one of those 26 weekers, there would be community outrage.

I am not going to try to pretend that I have great knowledge on something that I don't. so I will happily admit that stem cell research is not my strong point. My concern is when people use living human foetus' (or embryo's) in their research and then dispose of them later. They have as much right to a normal life as you and I, as far as I am concerned. If they are using concenting adults or children, or things like umbilical chords, then I don't have such an issue with it. I will freely admit that I do need to do more research in this area though.

I should also add that I am completely against cloning of any form as I believe it is people just trying to play God and it will not be long before they try to start cloning people.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
51
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

jayfox said:
I should also add that I am completely against cloning of any form as I believe it is people just trying to play God and it will not be long before they try to start cloning people.
What about breeding for positive traits like a merino sheep or thoroughbred horse,playing God Jay?

Or genetic modifying seeds,a la Monsanto?

What about DNA investigation like Pantera does

Where's the line drawn?
 

jayfox

Tiger Champion
Nov 11, 2003
4,829
0
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

shawry said:
I am interested to hear the views of you all on where ghosts etc fit into the scheme of things assuming htey even do exist. How can they get to us from heaven or are they stuck in between as many claim? Does the bible say anything about this?

The Bible certainly speaks alot about spirits, Shawry. In fact, the Bible tells us that we are spiritual beings too. We have a physical, human body which is perishable but we also have a spiritual soul which is eternal. The Bible also tells many stories about evil spirits that have inhabited people and the wonders that God's Holy Spirit has done and can do in people's lives. The Bible really is full of these stories but I could try to give you some links to some if you would like more info.
As for your traditional 'Ghost' stories, I am not a believer, i.e. the stories about a haunted house that is inhabited by the previous owner who was murdered there etc. The Bible clearly tells us that people either go to Heaven or Hell when we die and do not hang around the Earth freaking people out!
 

jayfox

Tiger Champion
Nov 11, 2003
4,829
0
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

evo said:
jayfox said:
I should also add that I am completely against cloning of any form as I believe it is people just trying to play God and it will not be long before they try to start cloning people.
What about breeding for positive traits like a merino sheep or thoroughbred horse,playing God Jay?

Or genetic modifying seeds,a la Monsanto?

What about DNA investigation like Pantera does

Where's the line drawn?

If you are breeding animals to create better blood lines and qualities, like breeding Simmental and Hereford cattle to promote bigger livestock (Simmental) with less birthing problems (Hereford) for example, then I am all for it. There is no Biblical or ethical problem with that whatsoever.

GM food I am cautious about, Evo. I don't know enough to make a qualified assessment however. Maybe you could let me know of the ethical issues with this practice.

I would like more information on the types of DNA investigation that Pantwearer is supposed to do (instead of spending all of his time on PRE!) ;D
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
2
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

jayfox said:
I am against abortion as I consider it murder. Once life begins, who are we to take it away. What is the difference between killing an unborn child, who has every part (forming) of the human body, and killing a brand newborn baby? I just don't see it. We fight so hard to keep premature babies of 26 or so weeks alive and yet happily kill unborn babies who are not that much younger, and yet, if someone went into a hospital and deliberately killed one of those 26 weekers, there would be community outrage.

How old does the fetus have to be before it's considered murder?
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
9
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

jayfox said:
.... and yet happily kill unborn babies .....

I don't think there's much happy for anyone involved when it comes to abortion.
 

Panthera tigris FC

Full Blown Chimp Crush
Oct 28, 2004
4,808
2
Torquay
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

jayfox said:
If you are breeding animals to create better blood lines and qualities, like breeding Simmental and Hereford cattle to promote bigger livestock (Simmental) with less birthing problems (Hereford) for example, then I am all for it. There is no Biblical or ethical problem with that whatsoever.

GM food I am cautious about, Evo. I don't know enough to make a qualified assessment however. Maybe you could let me know of the ethical issues with this practice.

I am pretty sure the Bible doesn't mention GM plants or animals, so you are safe there. There are certainly real issues about this technology, not to the extreme fear mongering that you might hear in the media (ie. Frankenfood). The issues revolve around the ecological impact of these modified species once released into nature and how they will compete with their natural relatives (ie. herbicide resistance leading to new 'super weeds' etc.). I think these are the real issues that need to be looked (and are being looked at).

I would like more information on the types of DNA investigation that Pantwearer is supposed to do (instead of spending all of his time on PRE!) ;D

At the moment I am marking 2nd year papers - hence my presence on PRE (I need some respite! ;D )

My PhD involved looking at genetic factors that impact on the quality of Australian wheat cultivars and developing tools to assist plant breeders in rapid selection of desired traits in crosses.

My current research involves a number of areas including:

- some limited continuation of my PhD work in wheat
- investigation into the genetic basis of sterol biosynthesis in plants
- investigation into genetic changes that occur in the evolution of polyploid species
- investigation into the nature of endosymbiotic relationships between bacteria and their host cells (including the transfer of genetic material).

How do you earn your crust Jay?
 

Panthera tigris FC

Full Blown Chimp Crush
Oct 28, 2004
4,808
2
Torquay
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

rosy23 said:
jayfox said:
.... and yet happily kill unborn babies .....

I don't think there's much happy for anyone involved when it comes to abortion.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good emotive argument Rosy!
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
2
Melbourne
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

rosy23 said:
jayfox said:
.... and yet happily kill unborn babies .....

I don't think there's much happy for anyone involved when it comes to abortion.

The myth perpetuated by some Christian groups is that women use abortion as a form of contraception.

It is true that this option has been made more easily available in some countries (where sexual empowerment of women is non-existant, and access to the pill is non-existant and condoms are frowned on because they effect the man), but even so, if you have ever supported a woman during an abortion, or talked about it afterwards, for 90%+ women (my guesstimate) this is not a light decision.

It is a major one, and one they have an incredible array of emotions on, and one many women continue to be effected by years later.

To Jay - none of this is referring to you btw, just a generic of some of the propaganda I have heard from Aust/US based anti-abortion groups
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
2
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

You're against abortion in all circumstances Jay? If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, getting an abortion is out of the question IYO?
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
3,068
230
NT
www.youtube.com
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Stem cell research is an interesting one. The real problem is IVF, the techno way for people to conceive. It produces excess embryos; these are then used for stem cell research. These would die anyway. Embryonic stem cells are 'blank' cells which can become any specialised cell in our body (eg they can become nerve cells). Adults also produce stem cells in the bone marrow(and possibly other places), but these are more limited in their ability to specialise.

Stem cell research then has a 'ethically correct' aspect (adult stem cell research) and one that exists in a grey area (embryonic stem cells). While we continue with practices like IVF and abortion it is certainly quite reasonable (by extension of the same rationale) to experiment on the foetuses produced.

My position is that both IVF and abortion are morally abhorrent and should be stopped. Surely infertile parents can adopt? Surely contraceptives are freely available?
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
2
Melbourne
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Djevv said:
My position is that both IVF and abortion are morally abhorrent and should be stopped. Surely infertile parents can adopt? Surely contraceptives are freely available?

Ideal world I would agree. Reality is not many want to go through adoption (donating that is), as its an emotional trainwreck, and the carnage for who badly it was managed in the 50's and 60's is still lingering today.

On contraception, nothing is 100% (I know a few married couples who have had kids in spite of condoms, the pill, and even having tubes tied) which does complicate the matter.