Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split and merged]

[Panthera tigris FC]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Stem cell research is an interesting one. The real problem is IVF, the techno way for people to conceive. It produces excess embryos; these are then used for stem cell research. These would die anyway. Embryonic stem cells are 'blank' cells which can become any specialised cell in our body (eg they can become nerve cells). Adults also produce stem cells in the bone marrow(and possibly other places), but these are more limited in their ability to specialise.

Stem cell research then has a 'ethically correct' aspect (adult stem cell research) and one that exists in a grey area (embryonic stem cells). While we continue with practices like IVF and abortion it is certainly quite reasonable (by extension of the same rationale) to experiment on the foetuses produced.

My position is that both IVF and abortion are morally abhorrent and should be stopped. Surely infertile parents can adopt? Surely contraceptives are freely available?

I was with you for the most part until the last paragraph.

Just to point out that no 'experimentation' is conducted on foetuses either. Stem cell research involves harvesting from blastocysts - early embryos - not foetuses. Nice emotive argument though.

So you consider a the use of a ball of cells such a blastocyst (early embryo) as a medical therapy morally abhorrent? What about sperm or eggs? So I assume you consider 'life' to have begun at conception? Does that mean spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) are murders by god?

I assume when you say "surely infertile parents can adopt" that you are infertile and have adopted? If not, what a presumptuous stance to take.

 

[Tiger74]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

So you consider a the use of a ball of cells such a blastocyst (early embryo) as a medical therapy morally abhorrent? What about sperm or eggs?

Sperm and eggs hey........ a lotta fifteen year old boys must be going to Hell :rotfl

On foetuses, they are used successfully in science. In the inbred mountain town of South Park Christopher Reed consumed them to gain super-strength, and Cartman used them to clone a "Shakeys" (I think its a pizza place). :cutelaugh

 

[Djevv]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

My position is that both IVF and abortion are morally abhorrent and should be stopped. Surely infertile parents can adopt? Surely contraceptives are freely available?

Ideal world I would agree. Reality is not many want to go through adoption (donating that is), as its an emotional trainwreck, and the carnage for who badly it was managed in the 50's and 60's is still lingering today.

On contraception, nothing is 100% (I know a few married couples who have had kids in spite of condoms, the pill, and even having tubes tied) which does complicate the matter.

I have friends who have adopted OS. One actually met the mother. To me this is a better method than chancy and expensive IVF, where only 17% actually concieve.

Interestingly, I am also close to two of the 'trainwreck' cases you mentioned above. The mother really suffers, but the child, generally is fine. Sometimes they meet up years later and sort everything out. Can't see how this justifies IVF though.

I know what you are saying here about contraceptives, but surely the answer is not deliberately killing viable foetuses?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Embryos that are produced in vitro will not develop into foetuses or neonates without implantation into a receptive uterus (and even then, the odds aren't great). You consider them living beings? They have the potential to become so, just as egg and sperm do. As Disco asked earlier - when do you consider them to be human beings?

 

[Michael]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

In my experience, most parents would move heaven and earth to have a child that is related biologically before they consider adoption.

 

[Tiger74]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

My position is that both IVF and abortion are morally abhorrent and should be stopped. Surely infertile parents can adopt? Surely contraceptives are freely available?

Ideal world I would agree. Reality is not many want to go through adoption (donating that is), as its an emotional trainwreck, and the carnage for who badly it was managed in the 50's and 60's is still lingering today.

On contraception, nothing is 100% (I know a few married couples who have had kids in spite of condoms, the pill, and even having tubes tied) which does complicate the matter.

I have friends who have adopted OS. One actually met the mother. To me this is a better method than chancy and expensive IVF, where only 17% actually concieve.

Interestingly, I am also close to two of the 'trainwreck' cases you mentioned above. The mother really suffers, but the child, generally is fine. Sometimes they meet up years later and sort everything out. Can't see how this justifies IVF though.

I know what you are saying here about contraceptives, but surely the answer is not deliberately killing viable foetuses?

Then what is? If I have 3 kids, a crappy job and my wife and I are in our forties, Im hardly going to be loving my wife being forced to give birth to a child a cannot afford to raise who are then going to adopt. That is the kind of thing that completely destroys families.

Personally I wish more people would adopt OS given the dumping of unwanted kids that happens in some countries (ie. China).

On IVF, I approve of it, but am not happy with it being used for open access. It should be used as a last resort, not the first.

On abortion, none of it is good, regardless of where you believe the life is created in the process. The whole situation is a mess, and frankly I dont have a perfect answer. I support legal abortion though, because I hate the world of backyard abortions and mothers being killed that we had before legalization. I also disagree with you on when life is life, but neither of us with agree with the other so Im happy to bench that discussion.

 

[jayfox]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

You're against abortion in all circumstances Jay? If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, getting an abortion is out of the question IYO?

Yes. I will start by saying that it is an incredibly hard position for the mother to be in, however, why should the unborn child be sentenced to death for a crime that it's father committed? As a Christian, I believe that God allowed the child to be conceived and it should therefore be allowed to live. Perhaps there was a purpose for it's conception, like to help the mother get through life after being raped. A child such as this may give her a purpose fir living when there doesn't seem to be one. It may help her to learn to have a healthy, trusting relationship with another person again, albeit a child.
In my opinion, abortion is murder, regardless of the situation.

 

[Tiger74]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

You're against abortion in all circumstances Jay? If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, getting an abortion is out of the question IYO?

Yes. I will start by saying that it is an incredibly hard position for the mother to be in, however, why should the unborn child be sentenced to death for a crime that it's father committed? As a Christian, I believe that God allowed the child to be conceived and it should therefore be allowed to live. Perhaps there was a purpose for it's conception, like to help the mother get through life after being raped. A child such as this may give her a purpose fir living when there doesn't seem to be one. It may help her to learn to have a healthy, trusting relationship with another person again, albeit a child.
In my opinion, abortion is murder, regardless of the situation.

Personally I dont know how anyone could raise a child with the face of the man who raped you and completely violated your body.

I always like how the people pushing this argument are usually men, and if they are women, rarely have ever sufferred a physical assault (let alone a rape).

Its always easy to tell others how to live when you do not walk in their shoes (and I do include myself in this, as a guy I have no idea what these women go through).

 

[Disco08]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Yes. I will start by saying that it is an incredibly hard position for the mother to be in, however, why should the unborn child be sentenced to death for a crime that it's father committed? As a Christian, I believe that God allowed the child to be conceived and it should therefore be allowed to live. Perhaps there was a purpose for it's conception, like to help the mother get through life after being raped. A child such as this may give her a purpose fir living when there doesn't seem to be one. It may help her to learn to have a healthy, trusting relationship with another person again, albeit a child.
In my opinion, abortion is murder, regardless of the situation.

At what point after conception is it murder? Directly?

 

[Michael]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Wow
This one twist to this thread that I suppose eventually had to happen

The subject of abortion is divisive in all moderate christian countries
Its so Black and White, Yay or Nay.

Me I personally think that abortion is necessary, stem cell research is a good idea.
However i'm against "designer kids" which is often at odds with stem cell research and abortion.

I cannot stand Abortion for the wrong sex, as with China, I find this truly abhorrent

 

[jayfox]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

I was with you for the most part until the last paragraph.

Just to point out that no 'experimentation' is conducted on foetuses either. Stem cell research involves harvesting from blastocysts - early embryos - not foetuses. Nice emotive argument though.

So you consider a the use of a ball of cells such a blastocyst (early embryo) as a medical therapy morally abhorrent? What about sperm or eggs? So I assume you consider 'life' to have begun at conception? Does that mean spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) are murders by god?

I assume when you say "surely infertile parents can adopt" that you are infertile and have adopted? If not, what a presumptuous stance to take.

You really don't need to get arrogant to make your point PT ("Nice emotive arguement though.). You should have enough qualifications from your position and education to let the facts do the talking.

I am with Djevv on the adoption topic too. I know many people who have adopted, including my best mates parents and one my wife's closest friends was adopted, along with several other people close to us. In all cases that I know of the parents and children have great relationships.

As for IVF, it can be risky too. Friends of our wanted to have a baby but could not conceive. They tried IVF wanting one child and ended up with triplets.

 

[jayfox]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

You're against abortion in all circumstances Jay? If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, getting an abortion is out of the question IYO?

Yes. I will start by saying that it is an incredibly hard position for the mother to be in, however, why should the unborn child be sentenced to death for a crime that it's father committed? As a Christian, I believe that God allowed the child to be conceived and it should therefore be allowed to live. Perhaps there was a purpose for it's conception, like to help the mother get through life after being raped. A child such as this may give her a purpose fir living when there doesn't seem to be one. It may help her to learn to have a healthy, trusting relationship with another person again, albeit a child.
In my opinion, abortion is murder, regardless of the situation.

Personally I dont know how anyone could raise a child with the face of the man who raped you and completely violated your body.

I always like how the people pushing this argument are usually men, and if they are women, rarely have ever sufferred a physical assault (let alone a rape).

Its always easy to tell others how to live when you do not walk in their shoes (and I do include myself in this, as a guy I have no idea what these women go through).

I am merely suggesting that a fantastic relationship between mother and child could be the good that comes out of a horrificly bad situation like rape. I never said it was going to be easy on the mother and she would definitely need enormous support. But I still think it is better than killing a defenceless baby.

At what point after conception is it murder? Directly?

When does it's individual life begin?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

You really don't need to get arrogant to make your point PT ("Nice emotive arguement though.). You should have enough qualifications from your position and education to let the facts do the talking.

I don't appreciate it when someone uses a fallacious argument that sparks an emotional response to make their point (ie "experimenting on foetuses"). It is ironic that you say that I should let the facts do the talking - that was exactly my point. I apologise if that came across as arrogant.

I am with Djevv on the adoption topic too. I know many people who have adopted, including my best mates parents and one my wife's closest friends was adopted, along with several other people close to us. In all cases that I know of the parents and children have great relationships.

As for IVF, it can be risky too. Friends of our wanted to have a baby but could not conceive. They tried IVF wanting one child and ended up with triplets.

I have no problem with adoption or IVF for those who need it. Both have their pros and cons.

 

[Disco08]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

When does it's individual life begin?

I'm no expert, but I wouldn't say it begins before it has the chance to develop into multiple fetuses. I don't think humans share souls do they?

 

[Rosy]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Although this topic is relevant on the Christian thread I think it's also worthy of it's own unique thread so it's been split for easier reference.

 

[evo]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

My PhD involved looking at genetic factors that impact on the quality of Australian wheat cultivars and developing tools to assist plant breeders in rapid selection of desired traits in crosses.

My current research involves a number of areas including:

- some limited continuation of my PhD work in wheat
- investigation into the genetic basis of sterol biosynthesis in plants
- investigation into genetic changes that occur in the evolution of polyploid species
- investigation into the nature of endosymbiotic relationships between bacteria and their host cells (including the transfer of genetic material).

Boy,are you going straight to hell, mate

I'm glad you are enjoying Nietzsche,I think he may be your only salvation. 8)

 

[Anduril]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

I found Richard Dawkins' take on this to be interesting. He says in his book that if embryos are considered to be human and therefore destroying them is murder then perhaps refusing to have sex can be thought of as the same thing.

 

[evo]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

In my experience, most parents would move heaven and earth to have a child that is related biologically before they consider adoption.

I used to live across the road from the G'.There was an abortion clinic a few 100 metres up from us.

Every saturday morning it was picketed by anti abortionist Christians hurling invective.I always felt really sorry for the poor girls scurrying past them to make the hardest decision of their life.

 

[Jools]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Yes. I will start by saying that it is an incredibly hard position for the mother to be in, however, why should the unborn child be sentenced to death for a crime that it's father committed? As a Christian, I believe that God allowed the child to be conceived and it should therefore be allowed to live. Perhaps there was a purpose for it's conception, like to help the mother get through life after being raped. A child such as this may give her a purpose fir living when there doesn't seem to be one. It may help her to learn to have a healthy, trusting relationship with another person again, albeit a child.
In my opinion, abortion is murder, regardless of the situation.

Personally I dont know how anyone could raise a child with the face of the man who raped you and completely violated your body.

I always like how the people pushing this argument are usually men, and if they are women, rarely have ever sufferred a physical assault (let alone a rape).

Its always easy to tell others how to live when you do not walk in their shoes (and I do include myself in this, as a guy I have no idea what these women go through).

I'm with Jay on this, I consider abortion to be the deliberate killing of a human. If I did believe in abortion, I probably would not have my eldest daughter, because I fell pregnant when I was single, and it was somewhat frowned upon, most especially by my parents. My life would be quite different and I daresay I may not have married my husband (or ended up with 7 children ;D ).
I do not know how I would have reacted if I fell pregnant as a result of rape, but I would not have an abortion because of my beliefs. I would most likely have adopted out the child.

 

[Rosy]

Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

A positive of legalised abortion, other than the health factor, is the compulsary councelling. Not to moralise, judge or preach but to support and make someone in a very difficult, and often lonely, situation aware of the options and possible outcomes.

It's very hard to condemn someone without having walked a mile in their shoes.