Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split and merged] | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split and merged]

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

agree
 

Michael

Tiger Champion
Nov 30, 2004
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

evo said:
Michael said:
In my experience, most parents would move heaven and earth to have a child that is related biologically before they consider adoption.
I used to live across the road from the G'.There was an abortion clinic a few 100 metres up from us.

Every saturday morning it was picketed by anti abortionist Christians hurling invective.I always felt really sorry for the poor girls scurrying past them to make the hardest decision of their life. :(

Yep that is sad. Imagine how many turned and fled
Cant stand anyone that forces their beliefs on others.

Whenever I agreed with my old man on stuff like this, he'd say that it had taken years for him to develop his own set of prejudices, and I should rack off and go get my own
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

rosy23 said:
A positive of legalised abortion, other than the health factor, is the compulsary councelling. Not to moralise, judge or preach but to support and make someone in a very difficult, and often lonely, situation aware of the options and possible outcomes.

It's very hard to condemn someone without having walked a mile in their shoes.

Agree, although Im not a fan of Howards counselling service manual being partially written up by the anti-abortion lobby
 

Jools

Tiger Champion
Sep 25, 2004
4,780
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Hoppers Crossing
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Tiger74 said:
rosy23 said:
A positive of legalised abortion, other than the health factor, is the compulsary councelling. Not to moralise, judge or preach but to support and make someone in a very difficult, and often lonely, situation aware of the options and possible outcomes.

It's very hard to condemn someone without having walked a mile in their shoes.

Agree, although Im not a fan of Howards counselling service manual being partially written up by the anti-abortion lobby

All sides should be presented.

Everyone's decision is their own and on their conscience. No one should be pressured unduly by anyone, whether family, boyfriend or whoever else.
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
2
Melbourne
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Jools said:
Tiger74 said:
rosy23 said:
A positive of legalised abortion, other than the health factor, is the compulsary councelling. Not to moralise, judge or preach but to support and make someone in a very difficult, and often lonely, situation aware of the options and possible outcomes.

It's very hard to condemn someone without having walked a mile in their shoes.

Agree, although Im not a fan of Howards counselling service manual being partially written up by the anti-abortion lobby

All sides should be presented.

Everyone's decision is their own and on their conscience. No one should be pressured unduly by anyone, whether family, boyfriend or whoever else.

Agreed. What has happened though is that the counsellors are actually being asked to push an anti-abortion line. If you ring up and ask for advice and details of a clinic to go to they will refuse to help you.
 

Djevv

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Feb 11, 2005
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Panthera tigris FC said:
Just to point out that no 'experimentation' is conducted on foetuses either. Stem cell research involves harvesting from blastocysts - early embryos - not foetuses. Nice emotive argument though.

Wasn't trying to be emotive. I used the wrong word in a hurry. You are correct in what you say.

I think life begins at the moment of conception when a unique human individual has been created (zygote). Prior to this (sperm & eggs?) no such individual exists. I think this is both a good logical & scientific standpoint.

The whole debate turns on this issue. The deliberate taking of a human life is murder, so if you accept the above then you can't justify abortion or IVF by any argument.
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

If a human with a soul is created at the moment of conception, how do you explain embryos which split after conception creating two or more separate people? Or how do you explain two embryos fusing into one (chimeras)?
 

Panthera tigris FC

Full Blown Chimp Crush
Oct 28, 2004
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Djevv said:
Panthera tigris FC said:
Just to point out that no 'experimentation' is conducted on foetuses either. Stem cell research involves harvesting from blastocysts - early embryos - not foetuses. Nice emotive argument though.

Wasn't trying to be emotive. I used the wrong word in a hurry. You are correct in what you say.

I think life begins at the moment of conception when a unique human individual has been created (zygote). Prior to this (sperm & eggs?) no such individual exists. I think this is both a good logical & scientific standpoint.

The whole debate turns on this issue. The deliberate taking of a human life is murder, so if you accept the above then you can't justify abortion or IVF by any argument.

I accept your points on the basis of this debate.

However, I accept that all of the examples provided only have the potential for life, but none of them are a 'person' so to speak (including the gametes). None of them are viable for long outside of the uterus and the birth of the neonate will only occur after sufficient gestation.

I also think that the decision to terminate a pregnancy has nothing to do with me, but for the mother and it is never an easy decision to terminate. When it comes down to it I only advocate for the mothers right to choose and have control over her own body.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Disco08 said:
If a human with a soul is created at the moment of conception, how do you explain embryos which split after conception creating two or more separate people? Or how do you explain two embryos fusing into one (chimeras)?
Nice curly question that 1.
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Disco08 said:
If a human with a soul is created at the moment of conception, how do you explain embryos which split after conception creating two or more separate people? Or how do you explain two embryos fusing into one (chimeras)?

Are you sure your're not a Jesuit Disco, coming up with questions like that?

I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea!

To me questions like this are in the region of God knows but I don't think we ever will! :-[
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Djevv said:
Disco08 said:
If a human with a soul is created at the moment of conception, how do you explain embryos which split after conception creating two or more separate people? Or how do you explain two embryos fusing into one (chimeras)?

Are you sure your're not a Jesuit Disco, coming up with questions like that?

I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea!

To me questions like this are in the region of God knows but I don't think we ever will! :-[
Let me take a stab then, djevv.

.
A:'Souls' don't exist.

Call it sapience instead.As in homo sapien,and you're in buisness.
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Djevv said:
I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea!

To me questions like this are in the region of God knows but I don't think we ever will! :-[

But you'd still say that stem-cell research is morally wrong on the basis that it takes human lives?
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
2
Melbourne
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

evo said:
Let me take a stab then, djevv.

A:'Souls' don't exist.

Rubbish.....have you never heard of James Brown?

I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL GOOD :upside :hula :banana :pooh
 

Djevv

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Feb 11, 2005
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Disco08 said:
Djevv said:
I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea!

To me questions like this are in the region of God knows but I don't think we ever will! :-[

But you'd still say that stem-cell research is morally wrong on the basis that it takes human lives?

Something that takes human lives deliberately is morally wrong regardless of whether you believe in souls or not. It's murder. Thats why we have legally and scientifically redefined when an embryo becomes human. The latest is 'when it becomes viable outside the womb' this is a very fuzzy line and is easily stepped across when convenient.

I think my simple and clear definition makes far more sense.
 

Panthera tigris FC

Full Blown Chimp Crush
Oct 28, 2004
4,808
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Torquay
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Djevv said:
Something that takes human lives deliberately is morally wrong regardless of whether you believe in souls or not. It's murder. Thats why we have legally and scientifically redefined when an embryo becomes human. The latest is 'when it becomes viable outside the womb' this is a very fuzzy line and is easily stepped across when convenient.

I think my simple and clear definition makes far more sense.

Can you provide examples where this definition is being encroached upon, let alone stepped across when convenient?

So you think the ball of cells that makes up the blastocyst is a 'human life', equivalent to a new born baby (or even late gestation foetus?)
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Djevv said:
Something that takes human lives deliberately is morally wrong regardless of whether you believe in souls or not. It's murder. Thats why we have legally and scientifically redefined when an embryo becomes human. The latest is 'when it becomes viable outside the womb' this is a very fuzzy line and is easily stepped across when convenient.

I think my simple and clear definition makes far more sense.

Your definition says it is morally wrong to destroy 150 cells (A fly's brain has 100000 cells) to research cures to countless diseases which cause untold suffering throughout the world. I think your clear but simplistic definition makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Disco08 said:
Djevv said:
Something that takes human lives deliberately is morally wrong regardless of whether you believe in souls or not. It's murder. Thats why we have legally and scientifically redefined when an embryo becomes human. The latest is 'when it becomes viable outside the womb' this is a very fuzzy line and is easily stepped across when convenient.

I think my simple and clear definition makes far more sense.

Your definition says it is morally wrong to destroy 150 cells (A fly's brain has 100000 cells) to research cures to countless diseases which cause untold suffering throughout the world? I think your clear but simplistic definition makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Really, it is making viable human embryos to experiment on something you think is 'just fine'? Sorry I cant see that as good ethics.

What you are in effect saying here is that the ends justify the means.

Why is the number of cells the issue?
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

Out of interest djevv, do you apply your principals in regard to killing to other living creatures or only to humans? Are you comfortable with killing insects, vermin, animals for human consumption etc? Am interested to know whether God would value human life above the lives of his other creatures.
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
2
Melbourne
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]

rosy23 said:
Out of interest djevv, do you apply your principals in regard to killing to other living creatures or only to humans? Are you comfortable with killing insects, vermin, animals for human consumption etc? Am interested to know whether God would value human life above the lives of his other creatures.

JFYI Jay covered this before I think, saying animals had no soul and they dont go to heaven (dont tell my wife there is no such thing as "puppy heaven")
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
21,757
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Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre

Djevv said:
Really, it is making viable human embryos to experiment on something you think is 'just fine'? Sorry I cant see that as good ethics.

What you are in effect saying here is that the ends justify the means.

Why is the number of cells the issue?

Because, with 150 they obviously don't have a brain. They actually don't even have neurons so there is no suffering. As I said, at the stage they are taken they can still split or fuse so I think it's a long bow to draw to say that they have already become a human being.

Of course it's an argument of the end justifying the means. The end is increased knowledge of almost every disease on earth, I don't see how taking 150 cells with the characteristics I just described from willing donors doesn't justify that.