Cricket

[Leysy Days]

when has siddle struggled?
he has played about 5 one-day games for the vics in the last 3 years for reasonable results. his record for aust is again reasonable, and consistent.

As Snapper said he's taken 15 wickets from 16 ODI at an Ave of close to 40.

His domestic one day average is also only 35, though he hasnt played a lot in recent times.

But they're not reasonable figures. They're poor. The reason is he doesnt change his pace up enough for that form. He needs to develop that & learn to get more movement to be a good international bowler in that form.

 

[pahoffm]

When you hit em like he hits them who cares!

vics 3 - 33 from 7. Maxwell, Hodge and Wade out, Prior just hit Drew out of the ground

The positive is that young 20yo Richmond Tiger Ryan Carters made his debut at no.8 and scored 4no.

Carters is a Richmond Tiger and opens the batting, as well as WK'ing.

As he is only 20yo, I don't mind him starting at no.8 in the order and with further experience slowly lifting his place in the order as he builds confidence.

 

[Leysy Days]

The positive is that young 20yo Richmond Tiger Ryan Carters made his debut at no.8 and scored 4no.

Carters is a Richmond Tiger and opens the batting, as well as WK'ing.

As he is only 20yo, I don't mind him starting at no.8 in the order and with further experience slowly lifting his place in the order as he builds confidence.

As ex-Tasmanian Matthew Wade plays for Victoria Carter will need to force his way in solely on his batting.

Certainly dont know enough about him to know if he has that ability. but that is where his only opportunity will lie. In Victoria at least.

 

[jb03]

As ex-Tasmanian Matthew Wade plays for Victoria Carter will need to force his way in solely on his batting.

Certainly dont know enough about him to know if he has that ability. but that is where his only opportunity will lie. In Victoria at least.

What does Navy think in general of so many state players changing states. Could it be hindering development with old codgers taking up spots in all forms of the state game.

IMO the Vics have been shocking with the number of "pointless" recruits they have been picking up.

 

[snaps truly]

The positive is that young 20yo Richmond Tiger Ryan Carters made his debut at no.8 and scored 4no.

Carters is a Richmond Tiger and opens the batting, as well as WK'ing.

As he is only 20yo, I don't mind him starting at no.8 in the order and with further experience slowly lifting his place in the order as he builds confidence.

Yeh, heard a bit about Ryan Fanto, good wraps on this kid, good striker of the ball, hits it hard.
Do you know much about Jackson Coleman? Saw his profile under the vic contracted players, bats right handed, bowls left meds. He was wearing the aussie gold in his photo, but i've never heard of him?

 

[Brodders17]

As Snapper said he's taken 15 wickets from 16 ODI at an Ave of close to 40.

His domestic one day average is also only 35, though he hasnt played a lot in recent times.

But they're not reasonable figures. They're poor. The reason is he doesnt change his pace up enough for that form. He needs to develop that & learn to get more movement to be a good international bowler in that form.

i say reasonable, going at 4.5 an over isnt great but not poor either, an averaging a wicket a game again isnt poor. his figures are very consistent. he hasnt benefitted from playing the likes of bangladesh or scotlland etc, nor has he benefitted from picking up any bags of wickets. he is reliable and consistent which when youve got bowlers like johnson up the other end is important.


is he in our best team? i dont know.

 

[Brodders17]

What does Navy think in general of so many state players changing states. Could it be hindering development with old codgers taking up spots in all forms of the state game.

IMO the Vics have been shocking with the number of "pointless" recruits they have been picking up.

who have the vics recruited? serious question.

players changing states, and teams playing older players is a tough one i think.
there has been a lot of people suggesting that the lowering standard of shield cricket has contributed to the poor state of the test team. if they take out the over 30s who arent going to play for Oz the standard is going to go even lower. but yes too many older players blocking younger players could be a problem.

 

[Leysy Days]

What does Navy think in general of so many state players changing states. Could it be hindering development with old codgers taking up spots in all forms of the state game.

IMO the Vics have been shocking with the number of "pointless" recruits they have been picking up.

Interesting question,

Its perhaps not so much about players swapping states as states playing older players instead of developing players through their system.

States need to find the balance between winning & developing. If you can do both even better.

Victoria have gone the winning route. People jump up & down about not having Victorians in the Aus team but Victorian coaches have somewhat made a rod for their backs. Getting 33+ older journeymen like Damien Wright in, who whilst performing very well is only taking the spot of a younger bowler (of which the Vics have many).

Likewise continuing to play Bryce McGain once his international career & is 37+ years old ahead of Jon Holland & Michael Beer, who despite absolutely dominating district cricket over the past few years couldnt get a look in. He needed to go interstate to get a game & further his career. If he didnt do that like many others havent we wouldnt have the possibility of him becoming an international bowler. Chris Rogers is another that was brought across at a mature age that was already in the system. His recruitment has only held back Michael Hill.

These are the types of decisions that hamper the countries development. Especially when they ahve a massive talent pool to draw from & develop. Other states certainly do them as well. They are just examples.

On the flip side, getting a guy like David Hussey who couldnt get a game for his state & was young enough to still push through to international honours if good enough cant be a bad thing. He has probably deserved to play more for Australia than he has. Wade also wasnt getting a game at Tas & wouldnt have ahead of Paine. Nothing wrong with giving him opportunity INO.

NSW for all their deemed love by the selectors on here are probably the best at pushing through young talent quickly. Is this helped by having senior players away - maybe. But they replace them with young players rather than older guys that probably perform better. Starc, Heazlewood, Maddinson, Hughes etc.

South Australia on the other hand have been easy beats for a long time & have produced little to help Aus for a good while. Their side shows that if you are getting beaten consistently it is hard for young guys to shine through. Would Ferguson have performed better in a stronger side - no question.

It probably seems biased & may well be, but Tasmania have got the mix about right INO. Competitive enough to win trophies & give young guys a team good enough so that is easy to come in & perform well in. But still push through they're own guys ahead as quickly as possible like Paine, Faulkner, Butterworth, Wells, & Bailey, Hilfy, Doherty, Geeves in their time all got consistent opportunity very early on etc.

That long enough for you. ;D

In a nutshell navy doesnt believe recruiting young players from interstate if their not currently getting an opportunity is a bad thing. Its recruiting already established older players, but also more importantly keeping guys on too long & thus restricting guys from coming underneath them that is the biggest thing halting development.

Getting states to chop out those two latter things will help greatly INO.

 

[pahoffm]

Yeh, heard a bit about Ryan Fanto, good wraps on this kid, good striker of the ball, hits it hard.
Do you know much about Jackson Coleman? Saw his profile under the vic contracted players, bats right handed, bowls left meds. He was wearing the aussie gold in his photo, but i've never heard of him?

Yes I do.

He is the son of the Coleman who played AFL footy, two or three decades ago, for Sydney et al.
He stands about the same size as his father.

My recollection is that he may play for Dandenong as he lives around that way.
We tried to get him at Richmond but he chose Dandenong instead.

He's primarily a bowler. I can't recollect his batting talents.
On body height & size, he is the right type.
It depends on how well he is developing.

 

[Leysy Days]

who have the vics recruited? serious question.

Mark Cleary, Damien Wright, Chris Rogers, John Hastings, Matthew Wade & David Hussey in recent years off the top of navy's head.

 

[spook]

Gerard Denton is another to have crossed Bass Strait, while Josh Marquet and Travis Birt were two who went the other way.

 

[pahoffm]

Good points you make there Navy.

The States have varying levels of cricketing talent.
Some are net importers of elite cricketers, like South Australia.
Others are net exporters, like NSW.
Victoria is somewhere in between, importing some cricketers and allowing others to escape to other States.

Two notable cricketers who've come to Victoria from NSW were Jason Arnberger & Graeme Rummans.
Neither could get a game for NSW when they had a batting line-up that read:
M.Taylor, Slater, Bevan, M.Waugh, S.Waugh, Katich, etc.
Both Arnberger & Rummans did very well in Victoria.
Arnberger's back gave in and has since retired.
Rummans still plays for StKilda.
Hussey from WA is another example.
Rogers from WA is another.

On the flip side, Victorians like Siddons, and now Klinger, amongst others have gone to South Australia.
For us, at Richmond, we've lost Wise, Blizzard & Crostwaite recently, and others further back.
We also lose players to other District clubs too.

Some argue whether it is a good or bad thing.
It really is all about the migration of cricketers to where there are opportunities to play at a higher level.
A similar thing with Carters coming from Canberra a couple of years ago and ending up with us at Richmond.

As for success over development.
Yes, Victoria chose to have more success, for financial reasons.
And Victoria have had a good run over the last decade.
However it did hold onto too many players, who couldn't go further, at a cost of developing youth.
Now as Victoria slides, it can't develop juniors quickly enough so it makes the decision to import, and the development of juniors in Victoris slides further.

The contract situation is an interesting one. I believe I've posted it before.
As each State has one of its players get an Australian contract, this opens up a place for that State to contract a new player.
Say NSW has 5 players under Australian contract and 15 players under NSW contracts, total 20 players.
If there is a 6th NSW player that receives an Australian contract, opens up an extra NSW contract that can be given to another player, new total 21 players.

Conversely, if another State, say Victoria, loses an Australian contract, then that has a step down effect.
The player who lost the Australian contract now has to be given a Victorian contract, say 15 in total, so then Victoria has to drop off one of its peripheral players, probably a junior, to keep its players limited to that 15. That probably means a peripheral junior finding a berth somewhere else.
That's the rub.

Each State contract that you give to an interstate player who believes they're not getting a fair go, means one less contract you can award within your own State.

Rookie contract have helped but these are governed by the same rules.

For me, the major factor affecting National cricket is that:
1. Batsmen don't get enough practise playing the type of games that develop good stroke-play and develop good decision-making, i.e, when to play v when to leave, and hitting the ball in the air too often.
And having sufficient batting time to experience truly high scores, rather than retiring at 45no or 56no, or whatever.

2. Bowlers are being developed to contain batsmen, rather than get them out. There are limits to the number of overs bowlers can bowl so bowlers aren't getting the opportunities to learn and experience taking 5+ wickets in an innings.

3. Fieldsmen are being placed in containment fields, which means that there is a growing dearth of genuinely good slip fieldsmen. Like anything else, you learn about taking slips catches by gaining practise in matches.

These are the three crucial areas.

 

[jb03]

Mark Cleary, Damien Wright, Chris Rogers, John Hastings, Matthew Wade & David Hussey in recent years off the top of navy's head.

Mott and Moss from recent times too and Phanto pretty sure Lehman was originally from SA before we got him over to help win a shield.

Interesting question,

Its perhaps not so much about players swapping states as states playing older players instead of developing players through their system.

States need to find the balance between winning & developing. If you can do both even better.

Victoria have gone the winning route. People jump up & down about not having Victorians in the Aus team but Victorian coaches have somewhat made a rod for their backs. Getting 33+ older journeymen like Damien Wright in, who whilst performing very well is only taking the spot of a younger bowler (of which the Vics have many).

Likewise continuing to play Bryce McGain once his international career & is 37+ years old ahead of Jon Holland & Michael Beer, who despite absolutely dominating district cricket over the past few years couldnt get a look in. He needed to go interstate to get a game & further his career. If he didnt do that like many others havent we wouldnt have the possibility of him becoming an international bowler. Chris Rogers is another that was brought across at a mature age that was already in the system. His recruitment has only held back Michael Hill.

These are the types of decisions that hamper the countries development. Especially when they ahve a massive talent pool to draw from & develop. Other states certainly do them as well. They are just examples.

On the flip side, getting a guy like David Hussey who couldnt get a game for his state & was young enough to still push through to international honours if good enough cant be a bad thing. He has probably deserved to play more for Australia than he has. Wade also wasnt getting a game at Tas & wouldnt have ahead of Paine. Nothing wrong with giving him opportunity INO.

NSW for all their deemed love by the selectors on here are probably the best at pushing through young talent quickly. Is this helped by having senior players away - maybe. But they replace them with young players rather than older guys that probably perform better. Starc, Heazlewood, Maddinson, Hughes etc.

South Australia on the other hand have been easy beats for a long time & have produced little to help Aus for a good while. Their side shows that if you are getting beaten consistently it is hard for young guys to shine through. Would Ferguson have performed better in a stronger side - no question.

It probably seems biased & may well be, but Tasmania have got the mix about right INO. Competitive enough to win trophies & give young guys a team good enough so that is easy to come in & perform well in. But still push through they're own guys ahead as quickly as possible like Paine, Faulkner, Butterworth, Wells, & Bailey, Hilfy, Doherty, Geeves in their time all got consistent opportunity very early on etc.

That long enough for you. ;D

In a nutshell navy doesnt believe recruiting young players from interstate if their not currently getting an opportunity is a bad thing. Its recruiting already established older players, but also more importantly keeping guys on too long & thus restricting guys from coming underneath them that is the biggest thing halting development.

Getting states to chop out those two latter things will help greatly INO.

Cheers. Reeally makes no sense to me to flick Klinger and recruit Rogers.

 

[pahoffm]

... and Phanto pretty sure Lehman was originally from SA before we got him over to help win a shield.

Yes, you're right, Lehman was originally from Gawler in SA.

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

Mott and Moss from recent times too and Phanto pretty sure Lehman was originally from SA before we got him over to help win a shield.

Cheers. Reeally makes no sense to me to flick Klinger and recruit Rogers.

Did Rogers come to Victoria before Klinger left?

To be fair Klinger had been given quite a lot of chances for Victoria and had not set the world on fire. He was a completely different player in his first season in South Australia.

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

Yes, you're right, Lehman was originally from Gawler in SA.

He and Paul Nobes both came over for a season or two before returning from memory.

 

[Brodders17]

Mott and Moss from recent times too and Phanto pretty sure Lehman was originally from SA before we got him over to help win a shield.

Cheers. Reeally makes no sense to me to flick Klinger and recruit Rogers.

yep, lehmann was from SA originally. im not sure if the vics 'recruited' him or if he left SA thinking scoring runs away from Adelaide oval would help his case for Oz selection.

rogers wanted to leave WA cos he wasnt happy there. Kilnger left Vic cos he wasnt happy there, and wasnt making many runs.

 

[jb03]

yep, lehmann was from SA originally. im not sure if the vics 'recruited' him or if he left SA thinking scoring runs away from Adelaide oval would help his case for Oz selection.

rogers wanted to leave WA cos he wasnt happy there. Kilnger left Vic cos he wasnt happy there, and wasnt making many runs.

Fair enough. That Klinger has kicked on could be seen as an indictment on our coaching. If he leaves first, then why get an aging Rogers (regardless of his state of happiness in WA) to fill the breach; promote the better performed district performers at least giving them chances. Perhaps the Vics are too trophy orientated.

 

[pahoffm]

He and Paul Nobes both came over for a season or two before returning from memory.

Yes, that maybe when Victoria chasing Sheffield Shields began, with Arnberger & Rummans coming too.

The other thing for Victoria is the loss of potentially good cricketers to junior AFL.

What I mean is that a top sporting 14yo boy, at both footy and cricket, gets selected into a junior U15 TAC squad. There are between 500 to 1,000 of these boys each in TAC squads ranging from U15 to U18.
So that's four years out of their potential cricket development so they can chase an AFL dream.

By the time they've run their AFL race, they've missed too much cricket.

Alex Keath is an exception, but Cricket Australia can't afford to go into open competition with AFL, offering contracts to every junior with talent. Keath also had the advantage of having those vital years at Melbourne Grammar where he could develop both sports.

Also, if more money goes into the top-end of cricket, there is less money at grassroots level.

Tennis is a great example of where money to the top, instead of the bottom, has ruined the development of the game in Australia. Tennis court numbers are a fraction of what they were.

Of course, another factor is that cities & suburbs are losing more cricket grounds to other sports & developments, etc.

In NSW the balance between rugby v cricket appears to be pretty even, allowing for more juniors opting for cricket.

Whichever, it is great walking & driving around Melbourne over the last fortnight observing so many junior cricketers play in their various representative carnivals.

 

[snaps truly]

I have a bit to do with junior cricket at my club, the mighty Tracy Village up here in Darwin. 20/20 cricket has been about the senior grade for a couple of years now, but a directive from ca has instructed the league to incorporate 20/20 games for our under 15 and 17 leagues this year as well. They normally only play 40 over games and 80 over games for finals. How can 20/20 teach the youth of how to play cricket properly? We have a big problem already with the senior guys only consentrating on blasting the ball out of the nets at practice, this will only compound the problem of everyone wanting to be a one-day star to the detriment of test cricket IMO.