Damien Hardwick [Merged]

[tigerfan1961]

I've read it dude. It was Graeme Richmond's single minded pursuit of John Pitura, that nearly buggered us in the mid '70s (read what Hafey said) and then his (and others) revenge fantasies that led to the trade wars with Collingwood that made us shyte for the 80s. This was followed by the "zero-tolerance of mediocrity" that meant we sacked the coach every 18 months for the rest of the 80s and into the 90s.

Graeme Richmond did great stuff for us in the 1970s when all you needed was a take-no-*smile*, head-kicking attitude and when we had more money and clout than any other club bar the one down Hoddle Street. Those days are long gone my friend. Those ways of running a club and recruiting don't work any more. You may have read your tiger history, but you clearly haven't understood it.

Spot on Mate, almost single handedly destroyed our Club in the 80"s, and why we have been *smile* for so long. Losing Cloke, Raines, Wood, Taylor etc killed what we had, and the resultant overpaying of hacks from the Pies meant we were flat broke.
Yep GR was great in the 70's, but was *smile* thereafter

 

[Rosy]

Spot on Mate, almost single handedly destroyed our Club in the 80"s, and why we have been sh!te for so long. Losing Cloke, Raines, Wood, Taylor etc killed what we had, and the resultant overpaying of hacks from the Pies meant we were flat broke.
Yep GR was great in the 70's, but was sh!te thereafter

That was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long ago and we're far better off now. The distant past hasn't got a lot of bearing on our fate now. It's in our own hands....hope we handle it well.

 

[ninjahaha]

so if the list is good as we are led to believe, we would have our fair share of players who shine under the pressure of finals footy!

Seen nth players do it. Seen port players do it. But our list is better, so we must have some...

 

[AngryAnt]

That was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long ago and we're far better off now. The distant past hasn't got a lot of bearing on our fate now. It's in our own hands....hope we handle it well.

True Rosy. GR ain't coming back.

 

[TigerMasochist]

so if the list is good as we are led to believe, we would have our fair share of players who shine under the pressure of finals footy!

Seen nth players do it. Seen port players do it. But our list is better, so we must have some...

Pressure should be fair n square on the players shoulders to pull the finger out n stand up in a finals game.
Been shown by overall season long performance the last three years that there's enough talent to win big games, to win multiple games on the trot. Coaches can only do so much, they don't go out n tackle or get in over the hard ball, they don't kick goals or flub simple passes under minimal pressure.
If the players don't stand up n make their own destiny the coach will cop it in the neck, as always happens. Perhaps then the players themselves might realise the old adage still holds true.
" If it is to be, it is up to me." From my point of view it's way past time for the players to step up n create their own era n history within the club. Not just handy n capable of good games when there's always next week to try again. Time to stand up when the proverbials are on the line n everyone knows it n is watching, waiting.

 

[ninjahaha]

We have guys with the potential TM, some very good footballers. But they are yet to find their internal hunger. Hopefully they do (if they have it?), or it won't matter who the coach is.

Agree the coach always wears the fallout.



But it is simplistic to put all the blame on him. If we had some of our better players play games like the great sides do, then we would have reason to accept its the coach's fault.




Just an easy blame, especially for those who have wanted him gone since 2012.

 

[spook]

And 11 in 2008. Hinkley inherited a much worse list and in fact it's probably still worse.

Hardwick first three years:

6 wins 8 wins 10 wins Zero finals wins

Hinkley first three years

12 wins 14 wins 12 wins 3 finals wins

Pretty unambiguously better with a list that won only 8 games in the previous two years as opposed to 16.5 wins for Richmond when Hardwick took over.

Au contraire. It's totally ambiguous, oh woolly one. Some might suggest disingenuous.

Players on Richmond's list in 2008/09 who never played a single game for Hardwick:
Matthew Richardson
Joel Bowden
Nathan Brown
Mark Coughlan
Jay Schulz
Troy Simmonds
Kane Johnson

Then there was Cousins, who played one more season, and Foley, who never again got close to his form and fitness of 07-09. The likes of Tambling, Moore, McGuane and Thursfield played the best football of their lives in 08/09.

So, to say Hardwick inherited the 2008/09 list is clearly nonsense. It would be more accurate to say he inherited a rubbish list gutted of pretty much every classy senior player who had carried it over the previous two years.The only players left from when he started are Deledio, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Rance and Vickery. Deledio was the oldest at 22.

Hinkley inherited a list that had underperformed under a truly woeful coach. Boak, Gray, Broadbent, Carlile, Kornes, Ebert, Hartlett, Schulz, Westhoff, Wingard, Cassisi, Jonas, Lobbe, Trengove, Pittard were all on it. It's an odious comparison.

Why can we beat Hawthorn but not North?

Simple: Hawthorn never hurts us in the ruck, North always does. I want to see that Hardwick gets that. That Maric never plays against North again. We can't beat them if he does, he gets slaughtered every time.

Post-2015 we had some major on-field areas that obviously needed addressing:
Ruck. A weakness for the best part of two seasons now.
Inside midfield. Cotchin and Miles carry our clearances and they're both rovers - we have no big, powerful ruck-rovers.
Key defender. Chaplin is a third tall.
Running defender. Sit on Houli and you kill our run out of defence.
Small forward. We kick fewer ground-level goals than anyone else.

I think most would agree with that. If you do, it's then hard to argue we've underachieved, given what were pretty gaping holes in significant positions. We've addressed inside midfield, small forward and running defender - how successfully, we'll see.

Whether Hardwick himself has seen the light re the injection of skill and pace our list has received over the past two off-seasons, we'll see, via the sides he picks next year. Our list will be younger in 2016 than it was in 2015. At the very least, he's to be commended for taking a long-term view. He might have grimaced slightly when told Menadue would take three years, but he didn't oppose the selection. That's ballsy, and noble.

Hardwick has his faults. He can fairly be accused of being stubborn, conservative, lacking imagination and tactical acumen, selecting the wrong sides, failing to man up the spare defender quickly enough, and more. He has his strengths: he has instilled the team with character, structure, discipline.

Those of us old enough to remember when we were winners can sometimes forget (or refuse to acknowledge) that for 30 years Richmond has been a Loser Club. President of the Loser Clubs' Losers Club.

It's all on the finals next year. Everyone knows that.

 

[taztiger4]

Au contraire. It's totally ambiguous, oh woolly one. Some might suggest disingenuous.

Players on Richmond's list in 2008/09 who never played a single game for Hardwick:
Matthew Richardson
Joel Bowden
Nathan Brown
Mark Coughlan
Jay Schulz
Troy Simmonds
Kane Johnson

Then there was Cousins, who played one more season, and Foley, who never again got close to his form and fitness of 07-09. The likes of Tambling, Moore, McGuane and Thursfield played the best football of their lives in 08/09.

So, to say Hardwick inherited the 2008/09 list is clearly nonsense. It would be more accurate to say he inherited a rubbish list gutted of pretty much every classy senior player who had carried it over the previous two years.The only players left from when he started are Deledio, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Rance and Vickery. Deledio was the oldest at 22.

Hinkley inherited a list that had underperformed under a truly woeful coach. Boak, Gray, Broadbent, Carlile, Kornes, Ebert, Hartlett, Schulz, Westhoff, Wingard, Cassisi, Jonas, Lobbe, Trengove, Pittard were all on it. It's an odious comparison.

Why can we beat Hawthorn but not North?

Simple: Hawthorn never hurts us in the ruck, North always does. I want to see that Hardwick gets that. That Maric never plays against North again. We can't beat them if he does, he gets slaughtered every time.

Post-2015 we had some major on-field areas that obviously needed addressing:
Ruck. A weakness for the best part of two seasons now.
Inside midfield. Cotchin and Miles carry our clearances and they're both rovers - we have no big, powerful ruck-rovers.
Key defender. Chaplin is a third tall.
Running defender. Sit on Houli and you kill our run out of defence.
Small forward. We kick fewer ground-level goals than anyone else.

I think most would agree with that. If you do, it's then hard to argue we've underachieved, given what were pretty gaping holes in significant positions. We've addressed inside midfield, small forward and running defender - how successfully, we'll see.

Whether Hardwick himself has seen the light re the injection of skill and pace our list has received over the past two off-seasons, we'll see, via the sides he picks next year. Our list will be younger in 2016 than it was in 2015. At the very least, he's to be commended for taking a long-term view. He might have grimaced slightly when told Menadue would take three years, but he didn't oppose the selection. That's ballsy, and noble.

Hardwick has his faults. He can fairly be accused of being stubborn, conservative, lacking imagination and tactical acumen, selecting the wrong sides, failing to man up the spare defender quickly enough, and more. He has his strengths: he has instilled the team with character, structure, discipline.

Those of us old enough to remember when we were winners can sometimes forget (or refuse to acknowledge) that for 30 years Richmond has been a Loser Club. President of the Loser Clubs' Losers Club.

It's all on the finals next year. Everyone knows that.

Good posting

 

[Leysy Days]

Ripper post Spook.

The ruck is the big question mark next year isn't it.

We all love Ivan's effort, but when it all boils down if he had even been able to break even with his opponent we win 2 of our 3 finals.

He's been destroyed in second half against Warnock and Goldstein which was the instigator of those turnarounds.

 

[spook]

Ripper post Spook.

The ruck is the big question mark next year isn't it.

We all love Ivan's effort, but when it all boils down if he had even been able to break even with his opponent we win 2 of our 3 finals.

He's been destroyed in second half against Warnock and Goldstein which was the instigator of those turnarounds.

Precisely. Not addressing the ruck was our major failure in the off-season. We're now backing Hampson, or hoping Griff can step up into the main role. Or we're treading water, waiting to bag a senior ruck next off-season. We can't win a flag with Ivan, much as it saddens me to say it.

The funny thing about football is we can win the flag with Hampson - IF he plays the right month of footy at the right time. Life ain't fair.

 

[billyb#40]

Pressure should be fair n square on the players shoulders to pull the finger out n stand up in a finals game.
Been shown by overall season long performance the last three years that there's enough talent to win big games, to win multiple games on the trot. Coaches can only do so much, they don't go out n tackle or get in over the hard ball, they don't kick goals or flub simple passes under minimal pressure.
If the players don't stand up n make their own destiny the coach will cop it in the neck, as always happens. Perhaps then the players themselves might realise the old adage still holds true.
" If it is to be, it is up to me." From my point of view it's way past time for the players to step up n create their own era n history within the club. Not just handy n capable of good games when there's always next week to try again. Time to stand up when the proverbials are on the line n everyone knows it n is watching, waiting.

If we don't achieve some finals wins this year then the "coaches golden rule" becomes more stark

Coaches have to "move on" under performing players or boards will "move on" the coach

Mainly Dimma has been loyal to his relatively limited list of players but now he has more talent and depth to choose from, he needs to get a bit more out of it. Spook summed it up well in his post

I am expecting Hardwick to be a ten plus year coach because I think he's a very good fit for the Tigers and will lead the players to finals successes

 

[yandb]

"Mainly Dimma has been loyal to his relatively limited list of players " so Billy you are suggesting that Hardwick has been failing in the finals due to his list?

If the list is limited as you suggest why have we not moved on these limited players over the last three seasons of finals failures?

Or why have we not sacked personnel in our recruiting dept. for developing this 'limited list'?

No I believe that Hardwick realises in all three finals his tactics and selections were not up to standard and that the personnel were of a standard to go deeper into Sept. than they ultimately did.

Can Hardwick learn from his mistakes? I hope so and I hope he delivers a sustainable game plan that will take us deep into September.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Au contraire. It's totally ambiguous, oh woolly one. Some might suggest disingenuous.

Players on Richmond's list in 2008/09 who never played a single game for Hardwick:
Matthew Richardson
Joel Bowden
Nathan Brown
Mark Coughlan
Jay Schulz
Troy Simmonds
Kane Johnson

Then there was Cousins, who played one more season, and Foley, who never again got close to his form and fitness of 07-09. The likes of Tambling, Moore, McGuane and Thursfield played the best football of their lives in 08/09.

So, to say Hardwick inherited the 2008/09 list is clearly nonsense. It would be more accurate to say he inherited a rubbish list gutted of pretty much every classy senior player who had carried it over the previous two years.The only players left from when he started are Deledio, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Rance and Vickery. Deledio was the oldest at 22.

Hinkley inherited a list that had underperformed under a truly woeful coach. Boak, Gray, Broadbent, Carlile, Kornes, Ebert, Hartlett, Schulz, Westhoff, Wingard, Cassisi, Jonas, Lobbe, Trengove, Pittard were all on it. It's an odious comparison.

Why can we beat Hawthorn but not North?

Simple: Hawthorn never hurts us in the ruck, North always does. I want to see that Hardwick gets that. That Maric never plays against North again. We can't beat them if he does, he gets slaughtered every time.

Post-2015 we had some major on-field areas that obviously needed addressing:
Ruck. A weakness for the best part of two seasons now.
Inside midfield. Cotchin and Miles carry our clearances and they're both rovers - we have no big, powerful ruck-rovers.
Key defender. Chaplin is a third tall.
Running defender. Sit on Houli and you kill our run out of defence.
Small forward. We kick fewer ground-level goals than anyone else.

I think most would agree with that. If you do, it's then hard to argue we've underachieved, given what were pretty gaping holes in significant positions. We've addressed inside midfield, small forward and running defender - how successfully, we'll see.

Whether Hardwick himself has seen the light re the injection of skill and pace our list has received over the past two off-seasons, we'll see, via the sides he picks next year. Our list will be younger in 2016 than it was in 2015. At the very least, he's to be commended for taking a long-term view. He might have grimaced slightly when told Menadue would take three years, but he didn't oppose the selection. That's ballsy, and noble.

Hardwick has his faults. He can fairly be accused of being stubborn, conservative, lacking imagination and tactical acumen, selecting the wrong sides, failing to man up the spare defender quickly enough, and more. He has his strengths: he has instilled the team with character, structure, discipline.

Those of us old enough to remember when we were winners can sometimes forget (or refuse to acknowledge) that for 30 years Richmond has been a Loser Club. President of the Loser Clubs' Losers Club.

It's all on the finals next year. Everyone knows that.

Ripping post spook, bloody well said.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Au contraire. It's totally ambiguous, oh woolly one. Some might suggest disingenuous.

Players on Richmond's list in 2008/09 who never played a single game for Hardwick:
Matthew Richardson
Joel Bowden
Nathan Brown
Mark Coughlan
Jay Schulz
Troy Simmonds
Kane Johnson

Then there was Cousins, who played one more season, and Foley, who never again got close to his form and fitness of 07-09. The likes of Tambling, Moore, McGuane and Thursfield played the best football of their lives in 08/09.

So, to say Hardwick inherited the 2008/09 list is clearly nonsense. It would be more accurate to say he inherited a rubbish list gutted of pretty much every classy senior player who had carried it over the previous two years.The only players left from when he started are Deledio, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Rance and Vickery. Deledio was the oldest at 22.

Hinkley inherited a list that had underperformed under a truly woeful coach. Boak, Gray, Broadbent, Carlile, Kornes, Ebert, Hartlett, Schulz, Westhoff, Wingard, Cassisi, Jonas, Lobbe, Trengove, Pittard were all on it. It's an odious comparison.

Why can we beat Hawthorn but not North?

Simple: Hawthorn never hurts us in the ruck, North always does. I want to see that Hardwick gets that. That Maric never plays against North again. We can't beat them if he does, he gets slaughtered every time.

Post-2015 we had some major on-field areas that obviously needed addressing:
Ruck. A weakness for the best part of two seasons now.
Inside midfield. Cotchin and Miles carry our clearances and they're both rovers - we have no big, powerful ruck-rovers.
Key defender. Chaplin is a third tall.
Running defender. Sit on Houli and you kill our run out of defence.
Small forward. We kick fewer ground-level goals than anyone else.

I think most would agree with that. If you do, it's then hard to argue we've underachieved, given what were pretty gaping holes in significant positions. We've addressed inside midfield, small forward and running defender - how successfully, we'll see.

Whether Hardwick himself has seen the light re the injection of skill and pace our list has received over the past two off-seasons, we'll see, via the sides he picks next year. Our list will be younger in 2016 than it was in 2015. At the very least, he's to be commended for taking a long-term view. He might have grimaced slightly when told Menadue would take three years, but he didn't oppose the selection. That's ballsy, and noble.

Hardwick has his faults. He can fairly be accused of being stubborn, conservative, lacking imagination and tactical acumen, selecting the wrong sides, failing to man up the spare defender quickly enough, and more. He has his strengths: he has instilled the team with character, structure, discipline.

Those of us old enough to remember when we were winners can sometimes forget (or refuse to acknowledge) that for 30 years Richmond has been a Loser Club. President of the Loser Clubs' Losers Club.

It's all on the finals next year. Everyone knows that.

:clap Post of the off season, spook.

 

[Tigertough1974]

Yep agree with almost everything Spook, great work and well weighted!

 

[yandb]

Quote from Spook "At the very least, he's to be commended for taking a long-term view" (Hardwick)

It was our Football dept. who made this decision not Hardwick.

One only has to look at the footage of the 2014 draft when Hardwick looked as if he was sucking a lemon when informed that Menadue was a three year project player. This showed that Hardwick was more interested in the short term than the long term.
When a coach is under the pump this is understandable.

 

[Carter]

Pretty good posting from the Spook Man I would've thought.

My only quibble is the notion that we haven't underachieved.

Missing the top four in 2013 and 2015 when we were well in place to do so, along with the well documented finals losses, puts us firmly in the underachieving category.

Yeah we have some positional weaknesses but every club except Hawthorn does.

The argument that we are about where we should be because of our deficiencies doesn't wash at all.

We have a battalion of skilled, attacking mids who can go one on one in the goal square or kick from long range.

We have an AA key back in the peak of his career.

We have an AA key forward in the peak of his career.

We have a clutch of highly skilled forwards who aren't given chances (or too late).

No. We should be playing to our strengths. That equals a top four berth in my book.

Look at Fremantle. They have a number of holes but play to their strengths.

Sydney. West Coast. The list goes on.

All teams have holes. It's a matter of maxmising the skill sets you do have.

Hardwick has been wrong for this list for three years now.

 

[lamb22]

Precisely. Not addressing the ruck was our major failure in the off-season. We're now backing Hampson, or hoping Griff can step up into the main role. Or we're treading water, waiting to bag a senior ruck next off-season. We can't win a flag with Ivan, much as it saddens me to say it.

The funny thing about football is we can win the flag with Hampson - IF he plays the right month of footy at the right time. Life ain't fair.

Yep that must be why Hawks have won three in a row - their great ruck strength.

 

[lamb22]

Hinkley inherited a list that had underperformed under a truly woeful coach. Boak, Gray, Broadbent, Carlile, Kornes, Ebert, Hartlett, Schulz, Westhoff, Wingard, Cassisi, Jonas, Lobbe, Trengove, Pittard were all on it. It's an odious comparison.

You may think quoting this list of players proves your point but it doesn't.

Schulz had been a B grade forwrd who Hinkley turned into key forward.

Cassisi was turfed by Hinkley. Surprised you didn't include Thomas on your list.

Broadbent. Really. A foot soldier who once again Hinkley utilised to his potential.

Carlisle v Rance. Carlisle Not fit to lick his boots.

Cornes had virtually retired and again resussitated by Hinkley.

Ebert Hartlett solid B grade mids - Had done 2/5ths of SFA before Hinkley got there.

Jonas ' Really?

Trengove -Solid.

Lobbe - again only a foot soldier.

Pittard - Played 14 games in 3 years before Hickley got there and was treading water. Pittard flourished (and he still has a few issues) because of Hinkley's game plan and belief.

Wingard, Boak, Gray and Westhoff - top players.

There is absolutely no doubt Hinkley outperformed Hardwick in their first three years coming from similar bases. I still believe Hinkely has a mid table list and we have a top 4 list.

Imagine the boosters around here if Hardwick had WON finals year 1 of the rebuild and was a kick of the GF in year 2. They'd probably also prefer 12 wins in year 3 rather than 10.

If you are seriously suggesting Hardwick did better than Hinkley in his first three years you're probably a lost cause and probably someone who believes Griffiths is actually a valuable player.

 

[tigertim]

Precisely. Not addressing the ruck was our major failure in the off-season. We're now backing Hampson, or hoping Griff can step up into the main role. Or we're treading water, waiting to bag a senior ruck next off-season. We can't win a flag with Ivan, much as it saddens me to say it.

The funny thing about football is we can win the flag with Hampson - IF he plays the right month of footy at the right time. Life ain't fair.

You lost me at the idea of even playing Hampy let alone playing him in a GF.