Development?

[Tigerbob]

What is the best way to develop young talent?

With some threads this discussion has come up in regards to Danny Meyer - do we let him play seniors at a better level, or play him at the lowly, unskilled Coburg at half forward. What is the best way?

Paul Roos has his idea on how tofast track development;

"The only way to fast-track development is by actually giving them game time.

"All of a sudden these kids are a lot more experienced than they probably would have been."

These quotes were about Brisbanes youngsters and him not being suprised how quickly the have risen. (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21542691%255E19742,00.html)

What is the best way? We seem to have a problem at Richmond on Developing youngsters.

Your say?

 

[Harry]

They simply don't have any role models to learn from. God help any kid that has to learn from the likes of Tivendale, Gaspar, Chaffey, Hall, Ottens, Daffy, Fiora, Holland, Zantuck, M.Gale, Sziller, A.Kellaway, D.Kellaway, Rogers, Bourke, Bower, Bulluss, Howat, Biddiscombe, Hilton, Prescott, Leys, Ryan etc. What a sorry bunch of footballers that list is - they basically made up our core playing group for the past decade or so. They're not totally to blame as they also had ordinary role models to learn from........and so on. The chain broke in the early 80's and could never be repaired. Still hasn't

Pathetic coaches in that time made the problem even worse.

The only good players we've had in that time were Knights, Campbell, Richo, Bowden, B.Gale, Broderick, Cameron. Maybe a few others. They were unfortunately overshadowed by the mass ordinary-ness of the list above.

Is it any wonder why the kids at Brisbane are coming along so nicely? Their role models have been/are Voss, Ackermanis, Michael, Lepitsch, Scotts, Black, Brown, Power, Lappin, Johnson etc. Their coach is Mathews. They pick up the good attitude of those before them, aswell as the good playing habits. Who does a kid look to when their team is 5 goals down. Their senior leaders. If their leaders or supposed role models drop their heads, or don't chase, or turn the ball over in the heat of battle then this somehow rubs off on them. It's about playing habits and attitude.

The mass exodus at tigerland in the early 80's was devastating and has had ripple effects some 25 years later. Since then we have never really been able to get back on our feet as a force. We've tried to nurture and develop players but we've only succeeded to develop them to a level of the players before them, which wasn't of a high level.

To get out of this rot and break the chain we need to find extraverted kids with ability. Kids that don't pay too much attention to their senior leaders and have the "stuff them attitude, I'm doing it my way" attitude. Hopefully they are around the corner and can start some sort of winning mentality that future kids can develop from.

 

[TOT70]

Harry, I would agree with all of your comments in this post. There are a couple of things that I would add.

Your list of good players were all present together as youngsters in 95 and did exactly that, they tried to break the chain by their own performance and not worry about players around them. Northey was very good at identifying the kids that he wanted and giving them the opportunity that they needed. The subsequent changes of coach were devastating. As were the losses of Free and Merenda to injury and Maxfield to the Swans.

They re-emerged as more hardened players in 2001. The core group of Knights, Gale, Broderick, Richardson and Campbell were again at the forefront, supported by Cameron. This time, success came despite the coach, not as a result of his input. In fact, his next act was to push Benny Gale into retirement and replace him with Stafford, a player who had been less than fully committed at his previous club. Back to mediocrity.

Wallace is pinning his future on a similar group. He fully believes that at some point in the next few seasons Deledio, Newman, Coughlan, Tambling, Pattison, Polo, Foley, Reivoldt and JON will set the standard for the club. They are already doing it at training, from all reports. Eventually it will filter into their games.

The focus over the next couple of seasons should be to add more players to this group.

 

[geoffryprettyboy]

Development hey, does that have any link with leadership?

This is when we incorporate Phantom's Leadership thread with our development issues.

 

[Leysy Days]

Brilliant post Harold & well backed up by TOO.

Just go easy on Butchy Gale H, no way does he deserve to be linked with those muppets you've put him with.

Everything else is absolutely true though.

 

[TOT70]

Brilliant post Harold & well backed up by TOO.

Just go easy on Butchy Gale H, no way does he deserve to be linked with those muppets you've put him with.

Everything else is absolutely true though.

Yeah, I chuckled at that one too. It is amazing how so many limited footballers were plucked out by our recruiting staff. Even the ones that they missed like Hilton and Biddiscombe were obviousy never far from their thoughts.

Ottens stands out as a player who had the ability to make a difference. Somewhere along the line, he became happy enough just to get a game. Is this the true curse? Is the standard at Richmond so low that getting a regular game in a losing side is enough to make a career?

 

[Mr Brightside]

Paul Roos hasnt fast tracked anyone,he has had the greatest run of injury free players in the history of the game,not sure the exact amount but half way through last year they had only used 24 players.

Got to say I dont blame Roos for not bringin kids in when his team is doing the job an trying to win Premierships.

On Meyer I for one would like him given the entire season in place of a couple of older players,but it would be an insult to the other boys to give him a game on last weeks performance

 

[Tigerbob]

Excellent reading TOT and Harry.

So we are waiting for the like of Deledio, JON, Riewoldt, Coughlan, Newman, Tambling etc to make it into the leadership group to change the culture, therefor change the way our development happens...?

Is that what you guys are saying?

 

[Mac]

Y'know, this thread explains a lot.

I was reading the article on Nathan Foley in the Fighting Tiger bulletin. On one hand it was great reading about his work ethic and how hard he has been trying to improve various areas of his game and proactively seeking out experienced help from assistance like King, etc. On the other hand, it was a bit of a worry how his work ethic and committment stood out so much. I would have hoped all our players (especially mid fielders) would be striving to benefit in similar ways. To me it makes sense that if you're in a team that ain't the best, you work on everything you can to keep improving to be able to match it with and beat the best - and then keep working. The multiple P theory: Proper Planning, Preparation and Practice Prevents P1ss Poor Performance.

Then again, maybe you just can't make raspberry jam from pig manure in some cases.

 

[Dyer'ere]

Paul Roos hasnt fast tracked anyone,he has had the greatest run of injury free players in the history of the game,not sure the exact amount but half way through last year they had only used 24 players.

Exactly. Has traded the selections that might have brought him some youth to develop. McVeigh has been an exception. Any others?

 

[Disco08]

Tim Schmidt's just starting to get a game. Drafted in 02 or 03 I think.

 

[bowden4president]

You can' just play kids for the sake of it!!! :scold

They need to earn their spot in the side, otherwise they will never work hard enough because they don't need to fight for their spot!! :boxing

Thats what i loved about TW points system during the pre-season......rewarding players who work hard :clap

 

[Harry]

Brilliant post Harold & well backed up by TOO.

Just go easy on Butchy Gale H, no way does he deserve to be linked with those muppets you've put him with.

Everything else is absolutely true though.

I couldn't stand M.Gale to tell you the truth. Very average footballer IMO.

 

[TOT70]

Paul Roos hasnt fast tracked anyone,he has had the greatest run of injury free players in the history of the game,not sure the exact amount but half way through last year they had only used 24 players.

Exactly. Has traded the selections that might have brought him some youth to develop. McVeigh has been an exception. Any others?

Don't underestimate the value of the extended rookie list. Both Sydney and Brisbane have benefitted enormously from this concession. It allows them to take an extra ruckman, an extra KP and a couple of extra midfielders every year. Not sure which young player to take with your last pick? No problem, take them both.

It improves the chances of getting a couple of players from the rookie list enormously.

Look at the number of recent rookies who are making their way on each list. Philips, Grundy, Vogels, Stiller, Roe, Patfull etc etc. They are all speculative picks but there is a surprising success rate. The trick is to have turnover. No one can do it the way these two clubs can.

 

[Dyer'ere]

Tim Schmidt's just starting to get a game. Drafted in 02 or 03 I think.

Vogels has had some game time (rookie). Malceski, that's the other bloke he's brought on.

Moore and... Grundy have had a few games.


Agree TOT70, they have more tickets in the raffle. Must win more often.

 

[Rosy]

To get out of this rot and break the chain we need to find extraverted kids with ability. Kids that don't pay too much attention to their senior leaders and have the "stuff them attitude, I'm doing it my way" attitude. Hopefully they are around the corner and can start some sort of winning mentality that future kids can develop from.

How do you recognise them Harry? By all reports Kayne was the kind of player you're describing but that didn't necessarily show when he first pulled on a jumper for Richmond.. Not singling him out but I have mutual friends who've told me a bit about him as a junior. A lot of standout juniors, are arrogant, egotistical selfish, demanding players because they tend to get favoured in the lower levels. We've all met them. Coaches tend to base the game around them because they want to win games. I don't know how you can guarantee that attitude carries through to senior AFL.

I suspect a player like Cogs just let his footy do the talking as a junior. He's far from extroverted but we could certainly do with a lot more players with his attitude and work ethic. If we were lookig for a particular personality he might have been overlooked. He's one player who must inspire his peers enormously.

I don't think it's as simplistic as you make out and improvement needs to come from all directions. How often have we seen a Richmond coach drag a senior player for giving a silly 50, or dropping a "name" player back to Coburg for poor performance? It's the exception rather than the rule.

The only 2 real instances I can think of make me angry and show just how rare it is. Firstly Richo having to front the media conference because he was being sent back to Coburg, and secondly the infamous Frawley statement that he'll find out who really wants to play for the RFC then dropping Knighter.

A lot of work has to be done to remedy past mistakes but what I don't understand, is when people keep harping on about the dismal past, is that they can't accept it will take time to change the culture. Terry has cleared out a heap of players by necessity but hopefully soon he'll be able to clear the list by choice and no matter how good a player is if they're not what the TEAM needs they'll be traded.

 

[Mr Brightside]

Paul Roos hasnt fast tracked anyone,he has had the greatest run of injury free players in the history of the game,not sure the exact amount but half way through last year they had only used 24 players.

Exactly. Has traded the selections that might have brought him some youth to develop. McVeigh has been an exception. Any others?

Don't underestimate the value of the extended rookie list. Both Sydney and Brisbane have benefitted enormously from this concession. It allows them to take an extra ruckman, an extra KP and a couple of extra midfielders every year. Not sure which young player to take with your last pick? No problem, take them both.

It improves the chances of getting a couple of players from the rookie list enormously.

Look at the number of recent rookies who are making their way on each list. Philips, Grundy, Vogels, Stiller, Roe, Patfull etc etc. They are all speculative picks but there is a surprising success rate. The trick is to have turnover. No one can do it the way these two clubs can.

Actually I see the other day that one of the VFL clubs has got two x Swans players who just happened to be ruckman,handy to be able just throw a couple of 200cm kids on the extended list

 

[TOT70]

Excellent reading TOT and Harry.

So we are waiting for the like of Deledio, JON, Riewoldt, Coughlan, Newman, Tambling etc to make it into the leadership group to change the culture, therefor change the way our development happens...?

Is that what you guys are saying?

Just my opinion. We would be a very strong team if the likes of Tivendale, Krakouer and Gaspar were depth players and that the tone of the club was set by players who wanted to win and would do everything required to get across the line. We have had far too many footballers who appear to be satisfied if they can occasionally run a good team close and win the odd game here and there.

Deledio played badly in round 1, he turned that around against stronger opposition in round 2. They are the performances that bring others along for the ride.

What would we give for a captain who can play a poor game but then kick two crunch goals in the last quarter to set up a win, like James Hird has done on many occasions? When he calls for more effort at the three quarter time huddle the next week, players are likely to follow because they know he will be standing at the front.

It doesn't work if he kicks two points or doesn't even get a kick.

 

[Mr Brightside]

Harry I was having a conversation the other day while watching Coburg, an I felt our boys needed that exact same attitude ,stuff em boys an take the game an responsability on your self

 

[tigerblood82]

They simply don't have any role models to learn from. God help any kid that has to learn from the likes of Tivendale, Gaspar, Chaffey, Hall, Ottens, Daffy, Fiora, Holland, Zantuck, M.Gale, Sziller, A.Kellaway, D.Kellaway, Rogers, Bourke, Bower, Bulluss, Howat, Biddiscombe, Hilton, Prescott, Leys, Ryan etc. What a sorry bunch of footballers that list is - they basically made up our core playing group for the past decade or so. They're not totally to blame as they also had ordinary role models to learn from........and so on. The chain broke in the early 80's and could never be repaired. Still hasn't

Pathetic coaches in that time made the problem even worse.

The only good players we've had in that time were Knights, Campbell, Richo, Bowden, B.Gale, Broderick, Cameron. Maybe a few others. They were unfortunately overshadowed by the mass ordinary-ness of the list above.

Is it any wonder why the kids at Brisbane are coming along so nicely? Their role models have been/are Voss, Ackermanis, Michael, Lepitsch, Scotts, Black, Brown, Power, Lappin, Johnson etc. Their coach is Mathews. They pick up the good attitude of those before them, aswell as the good playing habits. Who does a kid look to when their team is 5 goals down. Their senior leaders. If their leaders or supposed role models drop their heads, or don't chase, or turn the ball over in the heat of battle then this somehow rubs off on them. It's about playing habits and attitude.

The mass exodus at tigerland in the early 80's was devastating and has had ripple effects some 25 years later. Since then we have never really been able to get back on our feet as a force. We've tried to nurture and develop players but we've only succeeded to develop them to a level of the players before them, which wasn't of a high level.

To get out of this rot and break the chain we need to find extraverted kids with ability. Kids that don't pay too much attention to their senior leaders and have the "stuff them attitude, I'm doing it my way" attitude. Hopefully they are around the corner and can start some sort of winning mentality that future kids can develop from.

Good post, but i know the Kellaway boys didn't have the most skill in the comp, but they bought with them something that the other players on that list didn't in some hardness and commitment to die in the yellow and black jumper if they had to. You can't tell me you wouldn't want a few of those guys on your team when the going gets tough. I know we want guys who are skilful and have that desire, but how often do they come around? Those guys are still good role models because thats another positive that can rub off on players, guys who are willing to get crunched to take a grab, do the things that other blokes aren't willing to do. It's another reason why it hurt so much when Frawley got rid of Knighter, cause the jumper meant everything to the bloke... i'd kill to have more of that at tigerland atm.