Does anybody at Richmond have the guts to do what it takes?

[tigerjoe]

The question on all our lips.

Some of us have been screaming for years, for the tough decisions to be made yet nothing, I REPEAT NOTHING has been done.

Our senior players except Richo and Brownie are worthless, and this year has magnified this without any shadow of a doubt.

From the top:

Johnson, Bowden, Bowden, Krakouer, Tivendale, Pettifer, Tuck, Knobel, and Kingsley are occupying spots on our list they do not deserve.

THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We lack KPP and quality ball getters and disposers.

I ask the question again, DOES ANYBODY AT RICHMOND HAVE THE GUTS TO DO WHAT IT TAKES?

 

[jb03]

What does it take Joe?

 

[Bill James]

Do you have Oscar Wildes fax number JB?

 

[tigerjoe]

What does it take Joe?

Balls to delist/trade or play them at Coburg until their contracts expire.

Come on jb........

 

[Phar Ace]

What does it take Joe?

Balls to delist/trade or play them at Coburg until their contracts expire.

Come on jb........

An once you're done at RFC, perhaps you can consult to Carlton, them Melb, ....hell i can see at least 15-16 years work in this for you Joe ;D

 

[gustiger12]

Ah its so easy. I really can't work it out personally some many experts on here have all the answers yet bloke with years of AFL experience as both players and coaches just can't see the wood for the trees.

 

[tigerjoe]

What does it take Joe?

Balls to delist/trade or play them at Coburg until their contracts expire.

Come on jb........

An once you're done at RFC, perhaps you can consult to Carlton, them Melb, ....hell i can see at least 15-16 years work in this for you Joe ;D

Yes yes ridicule me all you like, I can take as much as you dish out.

What I can't take is continual garbage that Richmond call Football, served up for 25 years that we all believe is unnacceptable but cop on the chin because it's our club and we will still support them in whatever they do.

I hate to draw the comparison but Hawthorn traded Croad, Thompson, Hay and got rid of many others to make way for kids.

The blokes I mentioned have all had years in the system and shown that they are sadly only good enough for Richmond's list.

 

[Ruthless Tigers ?]

The question on all our lips.

Some of us have been screaming for years, for the tough decisions to be made yet nothing, I REPEAT NOTHING has been done.

Our senior players except Richo and Brownie are worthless, and this year has magnified this without any shadow of a doubt.

From the top:

Johnson, Bowden, Bowden, Krakouer, Tivendale, Pettifer, Tuck, Knobel, and Kingsley are occupying spots on our list they do not deserve.

THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We lack KPP and quality ball getters and disposers.

I ask the question again, DOES ANYBODY AT RICHMOND HAVE THE GUTS TO DO WHAT IT TAKES?

Ever since the 1980's when we started protecting players and not being strong the club has struggled. The tit for Tat scrap with Collingwood established a mentality of failure that has dogged us eversince. We hve lacked the ruthlessness tha made us the hunted and the hated. Players were shown the door and played for each otehr and the jumper. Not themselves. We werent exposed to sooky petulant behaviour that we now see when Richo isnt kicked too. We didnt see players shirk issues and we saw even the smallest player lay the hard tackles. Those old enough will always remember LAwrie Fowler laying out Big Nick...and even he wasnt immune from pruning despite being a prmiership player. We layed off those who lost the desire to play for the yellow and black and yes some had good careers at otehr clubs. now the bleeding hearts wont consider dropping or discarding the "stars". Reputation means nothing. This club needs players that hurt the opposition and nobody on our list does that. Get rid of Richo, Bowden, Johhno, Tiva Knobel Krak and any other under-performing under achieveing dud and get some players who will play for the jumper.
The deadwoo is hindering the youth that will lead us to a premiership.

Tough Times Tough Decisions

 

[RemoteTiger]

Tigerjoe,

I believe it goes deeper than the delisting or sacking of senior players - I think it is endemic in the processes and thnking throughout the club.

To support my view - take a look at the senior players that were traded, delisted from the Tigers recently - we all screamed they were no good or they were just in it for the money in their contracts - yet all of them have gone on to be regular AFL players in the teams that picked them up.

To name a few -
Ottens - playing good solid football at the Cats
Roden - playing top footy at Power
Fiora - a regular and playing OK footy at the Saints

All are playing better at their new clubs than what they were at Richmond.

Does that not suggest that there is something wrong with the club/team fundamentals at Richmond - and it is not the players who are all to blame. Put the players you mentioned in your post in the right environment and they are good - some very good.

So instead of just swinging the axe at the players - why don't we look at some of the sacred traditional processes at Richmond and see if they are the underlying cause of the mental fragility of our footy department and players.

For it does not matter if you have the guru of all coaches and half a team of brownlow medalists if the undelying mood, current at the club is fostering a negative defeatest attitude then the results will be the same as they are now.

The tough decision to be made at Tigerland today is for the Board of Directors to enlist the services of an independent group and do a complete review of the whole club - top to bottom and back again - we as members deserve to know where the central heat is of this defeatest Tiger attitude that pervades the whole club. Once located that central heat has to be extinguished and eliminated - and I am betting because of my argument above it is not the players where it is located.

 

[tigerjoe]

Tigerjoe,

I believe it goes deeper than the delisting or sacking of senior players - I think it is endemic in the processes and thnking throughout the club.

To support my view - take a look at the senior players that were traded, delisted from the Tigers recently - we all screamed they were no good or they were just in it for the money in their contracts - yet all of them have gone on to be regular AFL players in the teams that picked them up.

To name a few -
Ottens - playing good solid football at the Cats
Roden - playing top footy at Power
Fiora - a regular and playing OK footy at the Saints

All are playing better at their new clubs than what they were at Richmond.

Does that not suggest that there is something wrong with the club/team fundamentals at Richmond - and it is not the players who are all to blame. Put the players you mentioned in your post in the right environment and they are good - some very good.

So instead of just swinging the axe at the players - why don't we look at some of the sacred traditional processes at Richmond and see if they are the underlying cause of the mental fragility of our footy department and players.

For it does not matter if you have the guru of all coaches and half a team of brownlow medalists if the undelying mood, current at the club is fostering a negative defeatest attitude then the results will be the same as they are now.

The tough decision to be made at Tigerland today is for the Board of Directors to enlist the services of an independent group and do a complete review of the whole club - top to bottom and back again - we as members deserve to know where the central heat is of this defeatest Tiger attitude that pervades the whole club. Once located that central heat has to be extinguished and eliminated - and I am betting because of my argument above it is not the players where it is located.

If that is what is also needed RT then so be it.

But don't tell me the players I mentioned have what it takes.

 

[Bennnny]

I have been banging on about this for ages.

The problem lies with the club.

Geelong had a truth session at the end of last year and look at the results it has brought.

Time for Richmond to undertake a proper review from top to bottom.

For Richo to be told what his behaviour does. For him to express his disappointment at the delivery.

For the coach to say the truth about the facilities and the management.

Purge the club and rebuild it.

That should get the corporates back on board.

Sick of the under achievement.

We have been led by the players for too long and it is time they were told some home truths.

In return the coaches must find the way to instill skills that lead to correct decisions being made on the ground.

Insist on players being dragged when they make skill errors or don't follow the game plan.

 

[Ruthless Tigers ?]

Pruning Time

 

[Bill James]

Remote, thats a bit simplistic. Ottens played better at the Tiges. Simmonds and Polak are clearly playing better football at Richmond and its arguable that Brown played better football at Richmond prior to his injury. Certainly P Bowden played better football at Richmond than he did at the dogs. Some players just need a change of scenery.

Before Sunday's game I looked at our percentage since the Geelong debacle and it was 91%. Thats pretty good for a bottom side. We have been beaten only twice this year by more than 50 points, by the top two teams. Carlton has four losses over 10 goals.

I think our problem is more to do with lack of experience, lack of height and lack of strength. Due to injuries and drafting we have a list that is deficient in >190cm players and the 22-27 age bracket. Losing Knobel, Hall, P Bowden and Simmonds to injury for most of the year has not helped either of those problems and losing Brown and Cogs for most of the year has also accerbated the experience issue.

 

[Bennnny]

The continued inability to hit a target is the big issue. Against the Saints it was top notch. What has gone wrong since.

 

[gustiger12]

Remote, thats a bit simplistic. Ottens played better at the Tiges. Simmonds and Polak are clearly playing better football at Richmond and its arguable that Brown played better football at Richmond prior to his injury. Certainly P Bowden played better football at Richmond than he did at the dogs. Some players just need a change of scenery.

Before Sunday's game I looked at our percentage since the Geelong debacle and it was 91%. Thats pretty good for a bottom side. We have been beaten only twice this year by more than 50 points, by the top two teams. Carlton has four losses over 10 goals.

I think our problem is more to do with lack of experience, lack of height and lack of strength. Due to injuries and drafting we have a list that is deficient in >190cm players and the 22-27 age bracket. Losing Knobel, Hall, P Bowden and Simmonds to injury for most of the year has not helped either of those problems and losing Brown and Cogs for most of the year has also accerbated the experience issue.

Your spot on Bill again as usual. The club has acknowledges its recruting deficencies and puts steps in place to rectify them

Our corporate sponsor ship is pretty good. We have made massive turn arounds off field. This will flow on down with more money being able to be put back into the football side of things

Whilst the absence of Simmonds, Noble, Cogs and co hindered us on field short term, it will pay dividends in the long term as it has allowed some of the younger guys to gain experience that they would not probably have otherwised gain, at least not at he same rate. It allowed us to unearth a talent in King. Patterson has made great leaps forward and obtained a wealth of experience he would have otherwise obtained. Foley has come on in leaps and bounds as our No.1 midfielder.

Everyone knows that some of the players are not premiership material, but unfortunately they are still part of the best 22 we have available. Many have survived simply because we can't have a list of players all under 21. It just doesn't happen.

 

[TOT70]

See this is the problem with impatient people.

The Ottens, Fiora, Rodan (and I would add Torney and Holland to this list) examples are all pertinent.

In each case, we kept these players on during their inconsistent periods. All were resonably high draft picks and each played 60-120 games for the club. Like a lot of youngsters, they were all over the shop during their time at Richmond, just like Tambling, Deledio, Meyer, Oakley-Nicholls etc are now. Rodan and Holland both sustained knee injuries which set them back, Ottens also sustained serious injury during his time. In all five cases, we ditched them just as they were maturing.

What these players did at Richmond in their time is no different to what other kids do at other clubs. A few good games, a few ordinary ones, a few injury setbacks. The usual stuff. The consistency comes later, usually between 24-30. Their bodies stand up to injury a bit better, they hone their abilities and fitness, they lose the big-headed attitude after a couple of good games. They become mature footballers.

The ones we did keep from this era like Joel Bowden and Richo are exactly the same, as are umpteen examples at other clubs. How consistent were Jordan McMahon, Lindsay Gilbee, Anthony Rocca, Shannon Grant, Peter Burgoyne, Luke Hodge in their first three or four seasons? Not very, is the answer. The Judds of this world are a very rare breed.

In order to build a team we have to sort through and find the best players we can and KEEP them. Let them grow together, bloody their noses, work through hardships and enjoy the good times together.

There is lots of bemoaning the quality of our on-field leadership. What's done is done.

What we do have is an opportunity to build a group of new leaders. But we will have to wait for them to become mature footballers. Hurling abuse in their direction every time they lose a game is unhelpful. In at least one case it contributed to the player busting his gut to get out of the place. And yes, he probably was mentally weak, but we certainly could have used him this season and he will probably be a premiership player in a few months.

Does anyone have the guts to stick to their guns, despite what armchair critics like us think? That is the real question. Nobody has for over 20 years now. Things won't change until somebody does.