Does this year's Brownlow Quinella give rise to a new ideal type? | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Does this year's Brownlow Quinella give rise to a new ideal type?

pahoffm

No one player is bigger than the club.
Mar 24, 2004
21,145
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The Brownlow win of Chris Judd saw clubs, last year, recruit a supposedly ideal type of player. A 188cm, 84kg athletic midfielder than could run the lines both on the inside and outside.

Chris Judd became the model that we followed by recruiting Brett Deledio, and this year boasts the draft probability of players like Beau Muston, Shaun Grigg, Ryan Jackson and Scott Pendlebury.

But when Judd won his Brownlow, Westcoast were a fringe finals side.

This year has seen them transform from a fringe finals side into a genuine premiership contender. And who should be the Brownlow Quinella in a year that sees the Weagles near the crest of premiership success?

1. Ben Cousins, 27yo, 179cm, 79kg
2. Daniel Kerr, 22yo, 178cm, 78kg

Does the Weagles Brownlow and near premiership success indicate that players less than 180cm are a vital component?

In statistical terms, Cousins' & Kerr's contributions are:

Cousins: 16K, 9HB, 6M, 1Gl & 1T per game.
Kerr: 12K, 9HB, 4M, 1/2Gl & 3T per game.

Who of our team are similar types:

Chaffey: 28yo, 8K, 5HB, 4M, 2T, 0Gl
Krakouer: 22yo, 7K, 4HB, 3M, 4T, 1Gl
Rodan: 21yo, 5K, 5HB, 2M, 3T, 1Gl (2004 stats)
Roach: 20yo, 4K, 3HB, 0M, 1T, 0Gl
Raines: 20yo, 5K, 5HB, 3M, 1T, 0Gl
Foley: 19yo, 4K, 7HB, 1M, 3T, 0Gl
Tambling: 18yo, 6K, 3HB, 3M, 2T, 1Gl

Clearly none of these players are anywhere near the 20+ disposals a game that we need and the Weagles have. I believe that this is the single most important area that we need to improve in.

Chaffey, 28yo, is past the point of being able to get 20+ possies a game.
Krakouer, 22yo, if he had that ability should be showing it now.
Rodan, 21yo, injury ruined his opportunity this year, but next year the pressure will be on.
Roach: 20yo, looks a marathon away from the mark. Needs a miracle.
Raines: 20yo, Under big pressure in 2006 to double his possie rate.
Foley, 19yo, limited TOG and opportunity does not excuse the fact that next year there will be pressure on him to be near 20 possies per game.
Tambling, 18yo, showed glimpses, due to injury, but has the task ahead.

Some of you may be thinking that a player's age may have alot to do with this.
You are wrong.
Daniel Kerr,
18yo, 2001, 16 possies per game
19yo, 2002, 18
20yo, 2003, 19
21yo, 2004, 20
22yo, 2005, 21
You can see the progression. Kerr's been an overnight sensation for 5 years.  ;)
A genuine rover merely continues high possession rates from junior footy.
As said, if a rover doesn't have it by 20yo, he just won't have it.

This will be an integral issue for our club to get its mind around in the next few years because genuine rovers are not an issue that our club understands at all well.
And it will be vital for us to conquer this area if we are to become a genuine premiership threat.

As a final note, on the fact that the Brownlow Quinella were both under 180cm tall I'd just like to finish with one comment,

KISS MY ARSE, EVO!  ;)
 
I too struggle to see why some teams (ie Richmond) dont embrace the rover, everyone raves about the West Coast midfield and have a look at most of them - midgets. Just midgets with ability.

Cousins 179cm
Kerr 178cm
Fletcher 179cm
Braun 175cm

In terms of the Tigers I think Tambling, Foley, Rodan have the best chance, in that order. Raines maybe, Roach a longshot, and as for Krakouer & Chaffey :rotfl
 
Who would you take, Judd or Koutafides at his peak, or Cousins?

Dunno about ideal type, but good rovers are essential, no doubt about it. Also, you have some other good examples to back up your argument. Voss is under 6 foot. Acker is 179 I think. McLeod grabbed 2 GF's by the throat and should have won at least 1 of the last few Brownlows. At the moment we're seeing Crouch, Buchanan, O'Keefe and Shneider looking like a flag winning mosquito fleet.
 
tigersnake said:
Who would you take, Judd or Koutafides at his peak, or Cousins?

Dunno about ideal type, but good rovers are essential, no doubt about it.  Also, you have some other good examples to back up your argument.  Voss is under 6 foot.  Acker is 179 I think.  McLeod grabbed 2 GF's by the throat and should have won at least 1 of the last few Brownlows.  At the moment we're seeing Crouch, Buchanan, O'Keefe and Shneider looking like a flag winning mosquito fleet.

I'd take any of them at there peak.

As to an ideal type, maybe I omitted the point that, there is no ideal type except a balanced side that has star players in each of the key areas of talls, mediums & smalls.
 
Phantom said:
As a final note, on the fact that the Brownlow Quinella were both under 180cm tall I'd just like to finish with one comment,

KISS MY ARSE, EVO! ;)

Gee, if ever I have seen an act of defiance THIS IS IT! Evo has got to turn up to the GM meeting.
 
The amount of quality players that are under 180 cm tall is quite astounding. With the belief today that u need to be the ideal size to have an impact on the game alot of quality players don't go till late in the draft. Having a quick look at the small swans,

o'keefe No. 56 in the draft
Schneider No. 60 overall.
Buchanan No. 52 overall

Read the local paper, little fella called Fort Caruso, his brother played at coburg has dominated at every level of footy his played at, but probably won't get drafted because he is only 167cm from memory! The kid has done everything asked of him, would love to see the tigers take a chance on him late in the draft!

Oh and ideal type is the best player, class will always beat arse!
 
It's funny because Kerr was only used as an impact player this season. He only played 15-20 minutes a qtr and often started on the bench. This could be because he can't run out a game or they like to use him as the spark that ignites the rest of the team.
 
Coughlan24 said:
It's funny because Kerr was only used as an impact player this season. He only played 15-20 minutes a qtr and often started on the bench. This could be because he can't run out a game or they like to use him as the spark that ignites the rest of the team.

Damned great possession rate for a part time footballer. ;)
 
Phantom said:
Coughlan24 said:
It's funny because Kerr was only used as an impact player this season. He only played 15-20 minutes a qtr and often started on the bench. This could be because he can't run out a game or they like to use him as the spark that ignites the rest of the team.

Damned great possession rate for a part time footballer. ;)

He was great this year and as you say when he came on he got it ten times within 5-10 minutes he really had an impact on a lot of games this year. When they played the bummers he came off the bench and got them going when they looked almost gone. A luxury one day we might be able to afford. It speaks volumes for their midfield when he rotates on and off the bench.
 
Kerr is no part timer, he is a jet. One of the elite onballers. West Coast don't use him enough IMHO. Needs to get more ground time. He missed four weeks and lost by a tiny margin. If he plays those four he is monty to win it.
And I am going on record now, Chriss Judd will win another brownlow no doubt about it. He had a sub par year for him, got more attention and taggers prevented him by being scragged to the hilt and still polled 15.
 
This Brownlow highlights the need to have lot of midfielders on our list.

WC have 8 very good options: Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Embley, Braun, Selwood and Stenglein. Richmond has about 5 genuine options in their class: Jonno, Cogs, Tuck, Deledio and Tambling.

We need more pace and skill around the ball. I don't really care how tall they are but WC seem to recruit balanced players who can hold their ground.

Here's hoping that Hyde, Meyer, Foley, Rodan and Polo can improve.
 
Interesting question.  Based on a longitudinal analysis rather than an analysis for just 2005.....i would think the answer is probably no.

2000
1. Woewodin, 1976, 185, 83
2. West, 1974, 178, 80

2001
1. Akermanis, 1977, 177, 83
2. McLeod, 1976, 180, 83

2002
1. Black, 1979, 186, 80
2. Francou, 1974, 185, 82

2003
1. Goodes, 1980, 193, 97
1. Buckley, 1972, 186, 91
1. Ricciuto, 1975, 183, 90

2004
1. Judd, 1983, 189, 82
2. Ricciuto, 1975, 183, 90

A couple of key points:
  • Akermanis (2001) and West (2000) are the only players listed who are less than 180cm and may be considered exceptions to the rule.
  • All those listed above (except for Ricciuto in 2004) played finals football with their respective teams and were thus a shot at premiership glory.
 
I dont think the height of the players here is the key given that we are talking a few centimetres...Its about the players ability to get the ball and use it effectively.

Most of the guys mentioned in this thread do not rely on marking as a skill, the only skill ( hitouts as well ? ) arguably that is assisted by the players height.

Unless of course I am missing the point in this thread, which is highly likely...
 
Richmond United said:
Interesting question.  Based on a longitudinal analysis rather than an analysis for just 2005.....i would think the answer is probably no.

2000
1. Woewodin, 1976, 185, 83
2. West, 1974, 178, 80

2001
1. Akermanis, 1977, 177, 83
2. McLeod, 1976, 180, 83

2002
1. Black, 1979, 186, 80
2. Francou, 1974, 185, 82

2003
1. Goodes, 1980, 193, 97
1. Buckley, 1972, 186, 91
1. Ricciuto, 1975, 183, 90

2004
1. Judd, 1983, 189, 82
2. Ricciuto, 1975, 183, 90

A couple of key points:
  • Akermanis (2001) and West (2000) are the only players listed who are less than 180cm and may be considered exceptions to the rule.
  • All those listed above (except for Ricciuto in 2004) played finals football with their respective teams and were thus a shot at premiership glory.

Add 2005
1. Cousins
2. Kerr
to you list and that's 4 players of 13 players. That's 30%. Damned significant exception.
 
whilst cousins and kerr and especially judd are absolute champs, the crux of yr argument seems to be connecting the brownlow to success

whilst u can point to these guys playing on sat and recent winners being in very successful sides, i dont think the connection is valid

it takes much more than a skilled midfield, tho it would be nice

i dont rate the brownlow particularly highly either, so that might color my view

and i agree with rosy's point about midfielders

and everyones a midfielder hey!