Drug Discussion (Split from Stokes Thread)

[Tigers of Old]

Legalising a drug like ice won't stop the users from creating havoc.

Legalising Ice. Now there's a concept.

 

[Disco08]

Indeed. That does seem to be what Lamby's suggesting in the opening post though.

 

[Rosy]

You seem to be conflating the desire to make this a medical problem, not a criminal problem with the approval or condoning of such use.

I certainly don't see the problems as mutually exclusive.   There are many issues which would need to be considered.  Social, legal, criminal, medical, moral, ethical, financial, public safety etc.  

Do those who advocate legalisation of illicit drugs envisage open slather in regard to their production and marketing, or would it be Government controlled and managed? 

 

[Tiger74]

I certainly don't see the problems as mutually exclusive. There are many issues which would need to be considered. Social, legal, criminal, medical, moral, ethical, financial, public safety etc.

Do those who advocate legalisation of illicit drugs envisage open slather in regard to their production and marketing, or would it be Government controlled and managed?

In addition to these questions, you may also ask how legal (but regulated) drugs like tranqs and painkillers are massively abused, despite being completely under govt control and distributed by medical professionals in controlled doses.

If those who support similar arrangements for heroin and ice think harm and usage will fall, I'd like to know how given the success with legal medications.

 

[lamb22]

Considering cigarette smoking and alcohol consumption is accessible for, and partaking not uncommon in, minors how do you propose to restrict access of legalised drugs to them?

Wouldn't it be fun to watch our young kids shooting up heroin, requiring more each time to get the hit they want, sinking lower into the mire of self loathing in between hits and risking life threatening addiction.

I wonder if those advocating it's legalisation have ever watched heroin take over the life of someone they know? How they increasingly need more regular and stronger doses? How low they sink in between? How they hate what they've become and are powerless to stop it. I have with too many people I've known and it's not pretty.

Have they ever watched someone suffer extreme paranoia while on drugs? Have you ever had any experience with someone on hallucinogenic drugs? Both very dangerous conditions to have people running around in public putting their lives, and others, at risk.

It's been an interesting discussion but nobody has managed to convince me of the benefits and need to legalise drugs in any way. There is no way a smorgasbord of mind altering and highly addictive drugs will be legalised and made readily available to the general public so it's pretty futile to discuss it as though it's likely to happen. I'm still not convinced the advocates aren't just pulling my leg.

So moving right along.

I've had multiple knee operations. I've had very little success/relief from things like Voltaren, cortisone and glucosamine. Does anybody know where I can buy a packet of placebos. Seems they might be the way to go. :hihi

Rosy, the problems you've seen have occurred in a system where certain drugs are illegal and demonised.

If you legalise you regulate and that means quality control, regulation on strength of drugs so as to minimise harm, harm prevention through education and harm remediation through an involved comprehensive health and medical response.

I believe in legalisation because I beleive users will suffer LESS harm than they do today.

We both want the same outcome but differ in how we achieve it. Evidence sugges that the drug propblem is WORSE in western countires with a drug on war mentality (eg US as opposed to Holland or Switzerland)

Whatever the answer is, its clear the present theories aren't working. While legalisation (with appropriate regulation and controls) might not be feasible at this stage there must be more enlightened interim measures otherwise Rosy, we are condemning the same kids you are concerned about to the same outcomes.

Definition of insanity doing things the same way and expecting different results.

PS Panthera - I've taken my daily placebos and about to take my voltaren hit for the futsal game at 3.00 today. Long live placebos!!

Re' Scamwatch' - I hope you are not invloved in that pyramid scheme where men in white coat prescribe tablets pushed by mulitnationals to continualy treat symptoms rather than searching for causes. Such men in white coats and their drug suppliers have caused me much angst and pain in my short time on this mortal coil!

 

[lamb22]

In addition to these questions, you may also ask how legal (but regulated) drugs like tranqs and painkillers are massively abused, despite being completely under govt control and distributed by medical professionals in controlled doses.

If those who support similar arrangements for heroin and ice think harm and usage will fall, I'd like to know how given the success with legal medications.

If I want a year's supply of valium T74 my doctor wont prescribe it. If it was illegal and Mafia Inc was happy to give me as much as I want for a price I'd get as mich as I could afford.

I think its about time people stopped confusing cause and effect. People self harm with scissors and razers. We can not stop all instruments of which people can harm themsleves but we can try to search for the causes and help in their remediation.

And to those adults who take a course of action where they accept the consequences of their actions, enjoy that course of action and do no harm to others - there comes a point where others should just stop butting in!

 

[lamb22]

Indeed. That does seem to be what Lamby's suggesting in the opening post though.

Disco (and Rosy) my post 30 covers my approach to any proposed legalisation.

Rosy the articles I quoted in an earlier post also set out some of the regualtions and controls you can bring into a legalisation regime.

My theory - protect the vulnerable but otherwise allow people to make their own choices when such choices dont harm others.

 

[Tiger74]

If I want a year's supply of valium T74 my doctor wont prescribe it. If it was illegal and Mafia Inc was happy to give me as much as I want for a price I'd get as mich as I could afford.

I think its about time people stopped confusing cause and effect. People self harm with scissors and razers. We can not stop all instruments of which people can harm themsleves but we can try to search for the causes and help in their remediation.

And to those adults who take a course of action where they accept the consequences of their actions, enjoy that course of action and do no harm to others - there comes a point where others should just stop butting in!

not all doctors monitor patients enough to know when an addiction is occurring (we all have had great ones, and the odd shocker who signs anything to move you on)

also people quickly learn how to rort the system, and thats my point.

you talk about monitoring, controlling, and portioning use, but the current system in place for painkillers and managed by the medical profession is already abused. Wouldn't you be naive to assume the same abuses will not continue if your GP can dispense ice?

 

[lamb22]

not all doctors monitor patients enough to know when an addiction is occurring (we all have had great ones, and the odd shocker who signs anything to move you on)

also people quickly learn how to rort the system, and thats my point.

you talk about monitoring, controlling, and portioning use, but the current system in place for painkillers and managed by the medical profession is already abused. Wouldn't you be naive to assume the same abuses will not continue if your GP can dispense ice?

Well there are a lot more hurdles for a doctor to jump if he/she is prescribing Ice than Twodogs from the Comancheros.

 

[Tiger74]

Well there are a lot more hurdles for a doctor to jump if he/she is prescribing Ice than Twodogs from the Comancheros.

going to multiple doctors with a fake ID is hardly difficult

 

[Disco08]

Disco (and Rosy) my post 30 covers my approach to any proposed legalisation.

Rosy the articles I quoted in an earlier post also set out some of the regualtions and controls you can bring into a legalisation regime.

My theory - protect the vulnerable but otherwise allow people to make their own choices when such choices dont harm others.

Sorry Lamby, I missed that. Not enough time to pay proper attention ATM sadly.

 

[lamb22]

going to multiple doctors with a fake ID is hardly difficult

You know tiger74, you're arguing just for the sake of it. maybe we should move this to room 2A.

I present facts , stats , references to peer reviewed papers. You give me 3AW talking points.

No system will be perfect. For every regulation there will be ways around. It is in fact my main thesis seeing so many people take illegal drugs.

But if user can purchase a drug he or she knows to be prodced in a controlled environment, risks of harm will be reduced. legalisation would allow such a regime. Will people try self destructive activities outside the law anyway - yes and they always will. But a s a society we should try and come up with the smartest and most effective response possible.

Staying away from AW would be a start.

 

[Tiger74]

You know tiger74, you're arguing just for the sake of it. maybe we should move this to room 2A.

I present facts , stats , references to peer reviewed papers. You give me 3AW talking points.

No system will be perfect. For every regulation there will be ways around. It is in fact my main thesis seeing so many people take illegal drugs.

But if user can purchase a drug he or she knows to be prodced in a controlled environment, risks of harm will be reduced. legalisation would allow such a regime. Will people try self destructive activities outside the law anyway - yes and they always will. But a s a society we should try and come up with the smartest and most effective response possible.

Staying away from AW would be a start.

for starters I rarely listen to AW during the day (normally SEN or Newsradio)

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it - I have been consistent against the legalization of hard drugs throughout this thread.

When it comes to something like ice, I cannot see how (a) any level is safe to regularly use, or (b) how it can be controlled. At least painkillers have a legitimate function requiring their availability - what is that for ice?

As for lack of peer reviewed info - I'm not a scientist and have never pretended to be. Are only those who are a MD allowed to participate in this discussion?

 

[Tigers of Old]

I believe in legalisation because I beleive users will suffer LESS harm than they do today.

Like alcohol? Young folks open exposure to that drug has done wonders I guess. :headscratch
Surely we see enough alcohol abuse in young kids to know that give them an inch and they will take a mile.
By your logic you are saying let's open it up for all kids to freely experiment with even more dangerous drugs such as ice, heroin etc.
Head down to your local and grab a hit. :spin

Believe it or not lambsfry, there are a whole heap of kids out there who won't touch or at least abuse other drugs except alcohol because it's prohibited.

Allowing them to ab/use even heavier, dangerous drugs without ramification such as those mentioned above seems the definition of insanity.

 

[lamb22]

Like alcohol? Young folks open exposure to that drug has done wonders I guess. :headscratch
Surely we see enough alcohol abuse in young kids to know that give them an inch and they will take a mile.
By your logic you are saying let's open it up for all kids to freely experiment with even more dangerous drugs such as ice, heroin etc.
Head down to your local and grab a hit. :spin

Believe it or not lambsfry, there are a whole heap of kids out there who won't touch or at least abuse other drugs except alcohol because it's prohibited.

Allowing them to ab/use even heavier, dangerous drugs without ramification such as those mentioned above seems the definition of insanity.

Oldie. I'll refer you to my post 30 which might better inform you of my views.

Cheers.

 

[lamb22]

Alchohol is freely available in Italy in Supermarkets with little duty and little restrictions. Italians have a wine at meals culture in which childen are involved gradually. Coffee shops also sell alchohol , nearly alway have.

They dont have a youth drink binge problem. There might be a cultural or other issues at play here.

As i said, the drug of choice and its use or misuse is a symptom not the cause.

Edit - It seems the italians now do have binge drink problem . Some articles FYI

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6038686/Italian-childrens-binge-drinking-blamed-on-Britain.html

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/YouthIssues/1098903340.html

 

[jb03]

You know tiger74, you're arguing just for the sake of it. maybe we should move this to room 2A.

I present facts , stats , references to peer reviewed papers. You give me 3AW talking points.

Staying away from AW would be a start.

:hihi That made me laugh lamby. Been telling T74 he is PRE's Neil Mitchell for some time.

 

[Tiger74]

:hihi That made me laugh lamby. Been telling T74 he is PRE's Neil Mitchell for some time.

Mitchell is a wanna be Alan Jones these days :hihi

 

[lamb22]

for starters I rarely listen to AW during the day (normally SEN or Newsradio)

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it - I have been consistent against the legalization of hard drugs throughout this thread.

When it comes to something like ice, I cannot see how (a) any level is safe to regularly use, or (b) how it can be controlled. At least painkillers have a legitimate function requiring their availability - what is that for ice?

As for lack of peer reviewed info - I'm not a scientist and have never pretended to be. Are only those who are a MD allowed to participate in this discussion?

You dont have to be a scientist or a doctor but there is this tendency just to keep arguing without even tying to absord an alternative viewpoint or acknowledge facts which run counter to your world view.

I can throw up anectdotes and 'what ifs' all night in favour of my argument but what's the point of that.

Any fact that proves my world view is wrong or at least challenges it is welcome by me because I may be able to re-adjust my world view to accord with what's important - the truth or at least a closer approximation of the truth!

 

[lamb22]

for starters I rarely listen to AW during the day (normally SEN or Newsradio)

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it - I have been consistent against the legalization of hard drugs throughout this thread.

When it comes to something like ice, I cannot see how (a) any level is safe to regularly use, or (b) how it can be controlled. At least painkillers have a legitimate function requiring their availability - what is that for ice?

As for lack of peer reviewed info - I'm not a scientist and have never pretended to be. Are only those who are a MD allowed to participate in this discussion?

T74. Please see my post 30 for my views. They appear to have been 'chinese whispered' over the course of this thread.

Cheers