Frawley v Walla$e & Miller whos to blame for our current situation? | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Frawley v Walla$e & Miller whos to blame for our current situation?

I'm with you Griff - a little tie loosening might be in order for some of you guys. It's great to have strong views, and indeed some of them are expressed eloquently and persuasively. But some are just plain destructive.

I reckon history tells us how much success is bred from potting the coach. People have a right to opinion, but seems to me this thread is a bit out of control.

From what I see, there is shape coming to the defensive area, and there are certainly signs that the mozzie fleet may have some genuine sting in a year or two. It's not all doom and gloom.

Give 'em a go, I say.
 
Skills said:
Disco08 said:
Funnily enough some of those same people seem to be not all that upset about where the club is at right now.
Is that so disco?

Is what so Skills?

And I'm not sure if you're a darksider or not. You're probably a better judge of that than I am.
 
Richo has been clearly our best forward although the line is a little blurred between FF and CHF for him sometimes. As far as CHB's go, that's a good question, have we had a decent one in that time?
 
I too miss Jughead.

Gumpus did the odd good impression but there will always be.... One David Bourke,theres only one David Bourke.....One Davvid Bou......our...rke
 
Such an imposing figure.

316137_tn.jpg
 
Disco08 said:
Richo has been clearly our best forward although the line is a little blurred between FF and CHF for him sometimes. As far as CHB's go, that's a good question, have we had a decent one in that time?
Richo has been our best forward, but not a CHF in the true meaning. As for not being able to identify a CHB...thats unforgiving.
Now, how does this relate to the current thread?
Forest Gump decided it was time to move Holland from CHF - a position he failed miserably in - and turn him into a CHB.
Then he was in two minds about trading him back to SA. And, Forest Gump never had a true CHF...he played Ottens & Richo in that "blurred" position you make reference. As for the midfield, well enough has been said. Steven Sziller, Tim Fleming & Billy Nicholls were laughing stocks of the AFL.
There's my Part 1 answer on who to blame.
 
I came home tonight to find my son watching one of my videos.
Fortunately it wasn't one of those videos.
It was actually my copy of "Australian Cricket in the 80s".
As I sat down to watch it with him, I was drawn into the comparison of the plight of the Australian cricket team in the mid-80s.

Some of you may remember that, following the Chappell era, the Australian cricket team had sunk to its worst level ever. Any other test team could beat it.
1984 - The Australian Team is thrashed in the West Indies, Kim Hughes resigns.
A young Alan Border takes over as captain & a new look Aussie team with Geoff Marsh, Boonie, Deano, Steve Waugh & Merv begins.
1985 - The Windies thrash Australia in Australia. New Zealand beat Australia in a cross-Tasman series. England thrash Australia.
1986 - Bob Simpson is appointed the first coach of an Australian cricket team.
England beat Australia again, in Australia.
1987 - First ray of light, Australia's first World Cup win. A win against New Zealand.
1988 - Still getting thrashed by the Windies.
1989 - Glory, Captain "Grumpy" & his team win back The Ashes.
1990 - Narrow loss in the Windies.
1992 - Another narrow loss to the Windies in Australia.
1994 - Ultimate glory, a series win in the Windies. Australia are World Champions in cricket.

The lessons:
From the nadir to competitiveness in the test arena - 4 years.
From the nadir to the acme - 10 years.
To begin, heaps of losses, then a win or two, then more losses, then more regular wins, still some losses, then continuous winning & ultimate success.

The other thing I learnt from the video?
A young captain never wins when there are more senior players on the list who DON'T give full support.
Nothing destroyed Kim Hughes' captaincy more than the spade job that Lillee & Rod Marsh did on him.
Alan Border's ultimate "Ashes" success came from:
1. Being the "senior " player in the side.
2. Being able to carry the thrashings handed out in his early captaincy.

A good captain MUST have the mental toughness to wear the hammerings & not let it affect his own performance.
Victory comes with a good set of kids eventually gaining enough experience to stand up to what is thrown at them.
 
Good post Phantom. Who is our AB though. Frawley has left us with no one that can come through and be that AB.

In my opinion Spud is compleltely to blame for our current predicament. He basically had control of the club for 5 years and destroyed it.
 
Redford said:
Aaaaah Jughead. How I miss him.

He's not forgotten. There's a whole race day named after him this Saturday at Moonee Valley.

http://www.vrc.net.au/cpa/htm/htm_flemington_race_details.asp?race_id=103
 
Phantom said:
Alan Border's ultimate "Ashes" success came from:
1. Being the "senior " player in the side.
2. Being able to carry the thrashings handed out in his early captaincy.

A good captain MUST have the mental toughness to wear the hammerings & not let it affect his own performance.
Victory comes with a good set of kids eventually gaining enough experience to stand up to what is thrown at them.

The only player that that speaks about for me Joel Bowden. He is the most vocal anyway - has developed a very thick skin - has the intelligence and can play and lead. Wouldn't an "uninjured in the prime of his career Cogs" be handy right now!
 
Phantom, from reading Steve Waugh's autobiography Out of My Comfort Zone, it's pretty clear that the appointment of Bob Simpson as coach was the crucial factor in the turnaround of the Australian cricket team. Waugh says that before Simpson, the team went about things in a fairly semi-professional manner: e.g., not training particularly hard and drinking before and during matches.

Simpson came along and completely turned all that upside down. He insisted they train like a real game: e.g., the fielding drills were so intense that you could easily get badly hurt if you didn't concentrate for the complete session.

Also, Waugh points out that Border was a gritty man but not a great leader. He had poor communication skills, was fairly unimaginative, and did not want to run the show off-field. He simply did the deeds out in the middle and expected others to do the same. As a result, Simpson filled all the gaps. When Mark Taylor came along as captain, Simpson got his nose out of joint because Taylor wanted to be the main man both on field and off field.

Don't know what lessons there are in this, other than those we already know. To be winners, we'll have to reach the same level of professionalism as the top clubs (might be difficult given lack of funds), and you can't underestimate the value of a top coach.
 
Tigerblood said:
To be winners, we'll have to reach the same level of professionalism as the top clubs (might be difficult given lack of funds), and you can't underestimate the value of a top coach.

This to me is the key point in all this discussion.

While I posted before about the terrible drafting and that is a problem, to me the bigger problem is that our development of players is at best patchy. While we have got good players from the rookie list (ie last chance saloon) like Thursfield, Foley and King, the top picks have generally been a disappointment in their attitude (ie Ottens, Fiora, Gilmore, Schulz, Pettifer).

It doesn't make sense to believe we always took the wrong guy, but that we (RFC) failed to bring these players to the standard required for a long career with us. The big worry is that our coaching dept is very poorly resourced and probably not allowed, due to finances, to aim to be best practice.

IMHO we need someone as a Technical Director of coaching. like in national soccer programs. Someone not tied up in the day to day coaching, but an overseer. Unfortunately, Wallace seems to already see himself in this role, but he is still too close to the requirement for results.

As a suggestion, we need someone like a Fitzpatrick (Carlton), Sheldon (StKilda), Balme (Melb and Collingwood) or, heaven forbid, Sheedy. An experienced ex-coach who has the understanding to support the current coach but have the long term vision required for the club regardless of the coaching personnel.

Very tricky with the politics, but ex-coaches who don't want the senior coach's job anymore are valuable.
 
In considering my previous post, I guess in comparison to Balme, Sheldon etc our Football Director doesn't have the right skill set on the football side and should concentrate on the administration side. It is really too big a job for one man, especially along with being a board member.

In reviewing recruiting, the club should set the new position of recruiting head in wider parameters and take over some of Miller's duties.

The Recruiting Manager/Technical Director would:
- establish and maintain a network of scouts interstate and in country Victoria
- oversee player development and welfare in the critical first few years
- liase with and support the feeder club (Coburg)
- counsel, mentor and develop the coaching staff
- develop and incorporate ooutside skills (eg biomechanics, psychology, sports medicine, new technology)

This really is the old Graeme Richmond job before footy became a big business. it's about resetting the culture of the playing group and should be a strong Richmond personality.

I would approach Malthouse, Sheedy and Northey. (Don't go crazy just yet)

If Malthouse or Sheedy leave their current coaching jobs, they can't stay there because it would destabilise the new coach. Northey has the opposite problem with his departure from Richmond.

- It is open to question whether any of them can pick players, but Malthouse should have a good network in WA at least. Sheedy has respect and contacts everywhere, particularly in NT. Northey should have a national network from coaching in country Victoria, Sydney, Queensland and WA.

- All three seem able to breed the hard, team-oriented, accountable, hungry edge into their young players that we fall down on.

- All three would be able to teach our assistant and junior (Coburg) coaches a lot, particularly about dealing with player and team psychology.

- All three have been open to new technology and are inquisitive about new methods while maintaining a focus on the bottom line = winning footy matches.

Oh well I guess I can live in the fantasy about changing our culture back to the old days for a while.

Truth is Miller and Wallace wouldn't give up any of their power and control.
Malthouse, Sheedy (definately, think pink marshmallows) and Northey probably don't respect Miller or Wallace enough to work for and with them.
 
Tigerblood said:
Phantom, from reading Steve Waugh's autobiography Out of My Comfort Zone, it's pretty clear that the appointment of Bob Simpson as coach was the crucial factor in the turnaround of the Australian cricket team. Waugh says that before Simpson, the team went about things in a fairly semi-professional manner: e.g., not training particularly hard and drinking before and during matches.

Simpson came along and completely turned all that upside down. He insisted they train like a real game: e.g., the fielding drills were so intense that you could easily get badly hurt if you didn't concentrate for the complete session.

Also, Waugh points out that Border was a gritty man but not a great leader. He had poor communication skills, was fairly unimaginative, and did not want to run the show off-field. He simply did the deeds out in the middle and expected others to do the same. As a result, Simpson filled all the gaps. When Mark Taylor came along as captain, Simpson got his nose out of joint because Taylor wanted to be the main man both on field and off field.

Don't know what lessons there are in this, other than those we already know. To be winners, we'll have to reach the same level of professionalism as the top clubs (might be difficult given lack of funds), and you can't underestimate the value of a top coach.

Yes.
I would agree with the detail you have posted.

Simpson, as a coaching appointment, sped the development of the young Australians, but again it took time. For him, It was 2-3 years after his appointment that the Aussies won the 1987 World Cup, which I would metaphorically compare to the the AFL Pre-season competition. But it wasn't until 1989, some 4-5 years later that the Aussies won The Ashes back. It wasn't until 1994, 10 years later, with both Border & Simpson gone, that Australia stamped itself as clearly the World Champion Cricket team.

Border wasn't a great captain, but he was a good captain. He was prepared to use every ounce of his ability towards team success. He had the "mental fortitude" to withstand the pressure-cooker of defeat until victories could be achieved.

Taylor was what the Australian team ultimately needed to become consistant winners. A captain who could coordinate team efforts to maximum advantage. It was my belief then, and I still hold to it, that if Taylor had been appointed earlier, back in 1990, Australia would have won the 1990 series in the West Indies and become World Champions 4 years earlier.

As an aside, I'm even more certain that had Taylor had been maintained as captain for the famous VSS Laxman series in India, he would NOT have sent the Indians back in, and Australia would have won that test & the series. Every knowledgeable cricketing fan knew, immediately when Waugh made that decision to send India back in, that he'd erred. Nothing is more useless on a battlefield than exhausted artillery.

Personally, the lesson for me is that:
1. Transition from regular defeat to regular victory takes time.
2. One person, or one group, is NOT the end to a solution but merely the first step.
3. Ultimate success comes from continually building along a progressive path.
4. That the leadership structure of the RFC will continue to evolve until ultimate success is reached.
 
Leadership a key to success
08 June 2007 Herald-Sun
Trevor Grant

FROM as far back as when captains made the call on free kicks because umpires were still to be invented, football has always placed a high premium on the value of leadership.

...

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