Frawley v Walla$e & Miller whos to blame for our current situation?

[pahoffm]

I don't think he was knocking Jackson per se but our whole setup. Even if Jackson is a good recruiter he obviously needs more support and resources..

Yes,this is basically my point.

Jackson has certainly been an improvement on previous people in the position(Beck still gives me nightmares)I really have no complaint with him.

Just that more needs to be done,in my view if we are to compete viably with the Weagles etc of the world.

Resources are always limited,we're never going to have a Lexus Centre-recruiting is where I'd focus our limited resources.

Agree, more resources do need to be put in.
The lack of resources cost us Merv Keane to Essendon.
Personally, my contribution could be better if it had some small resources from the club.

 

[evo]

Fair, but I wasn't trying to knock evo. I was simply trying to point out that our recruiting may be on the up, though I admit 1 season does not a recruiting champion make.

Recruiting is definately on the up.Still more work to do.We have alot of lost ground to make up just to get to a 'Collingwood level',let alone a Weagles one.

As you say,patience is required.I have patience,recent losses haven't really bothered me.When I go to watch the footy now i barely even watch what Richo or Bowden are doing,I'm more interested in what Edwards,Foley,White,Lids,Bling etc are doing.

I just want to see the the good but small base in recruiting continue to improve.doesn't seem alot to ask.

 

[Peaka]

Guys,

I am basically disappointed with the performance of the club this year but for posters to compare our situation with that of Hawthorn is basically ignoring the context of the situation.

When Clarkson took over Hawthorn they were basically making a profit, reasonable resources in the bank and as I recall as part of the deal for them agreeing to move home games from Waverley their home games were being underwritten by the AFL. As such they could afford a complete tank (sorry rebuild) safe in teh knowledge that they could be *smile* for 3 or more years and woudl not suffer financially 9and even if they did they probably had teh resources to weather the storm).

In contrast when Wallace took over Richmond the club was losing $ and had a net debt and a patheric stadium deal. It is not surprising that the club decided to try and return the club to respectability on field (even if only short lived) so that the off field part could stem the bleeding and we could get ourselves into a position to rebuild properly.

It woudl have been suicide to attempt a hawthorn like rebuild in 2004 as we would now all be supporters of the Southport Tigers.

Peaka

 

[RROFO]

...
The lack of resources cost us Merv Keane to Essendon.
Personally, my contribution could be better if it had some small resources from the club.

Your not going to Essendon are you Phantom? :cheeky

 

[BloodOath]

I think resources are the thing that have cost us and there are many reasons for that.

If you look at the AFL - everything they do is to make the competition more even - salary cap, draft etc. etc.

It seems to me one of the only ways you can make a difference is by having more resources in the area the afl don't contol. Better Administrators, better coaches, better recruiting etc.

Hawthorn had 4 times the recruiting resources we had for 2004.

Alll the interstate clubs have massive recruiting budgets. Colling wood has a massive recruiting budget. All these teams have done well in recruiting. It is the area that determins the direction of your club.

It stands to logic - more resources here and a better outcome. A better outcome and a better team.

I think we were one of the last clubs to realise that recruiting is important. More resources are essential.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Can anyone tell me off the top of their heads if other clubs are playing many under 21's and if so, how they're performing please?

It's a rough and ready measure, but these are the number of games played for each club in 2007 by players under 21 on match day, along with average disposals for those players:

Cb Ma % Disp
--------------
Ca 62 28% 11.6
Co 60 27% 13.8
Ri 51 23% 12.1
Br 46 21% 12.2
Ka 40 18% 11.4
Ha 39 18% 14.6
Me 33 15% 13.9
Es 33 15% 13.8
WC 32 15% 14.6
WB 30 14% 10.5
Ad 29 13% 18.2
PA 27 12% 10.3
Ge 27 12% 11.9
St 23 10% 11.6
Sy 7 3% 5.9
Fr 3 1% 6.3

Going by those figures, wouldn't be surprised to see Roos jump ship at the end of the year and leave someone else holding the baby.

 

[jb03]

Good stats L2R2r. Certainly reflects where Sydney are at and where Freo think they are at.

 

[B1 and B2]

Good stats L2R2r. Certainly reflects where Sydney are at and where Freo think they are at.

LTRTR you are not only the Banner guru but add Stats genius to the list.

Interesting stats though - keep em coming.

B1

 

[pahoffm]

Excellent table there 12428.

For further reference on the age distributions of the various AFL lists, just refer to the Team Previews that I post in that section.

 

[The_General]

I don't blame Wallace for the comments he made. They were accurate, he did inherit a wreck of a list. I reckon about 32 of the people on the list he inherited were not good enough to be a 1st 22 player in a premiership list. Some of them might have been OK as reserves players who step in to fill for a suspended/injured player, but that would have been a handfull of them only. They could cut back 10 players a year, for the first three, but dependant on the draft, you'd only pick up a few AFL quality players. It's fine to draft kids, but the kids have to actually have the potential to play at the level. I don't think the 2005 draft was deep enough to take 6 kids, unless you could trade for some early round draft selections. Given how crap our list is, what were we actually going to trade, to achieve this?

The part I've not been particularly happy with, is the players we've drafted. Some players haven't shown a great deal, even though they've been with us for a while now. We're either not getting the best out of them (which may change now with McCrae), or we've drafted incorrectly.

I'm happy we got Simmonds (where would our ruck stocks be without him?). Not too fussed we got Graham, as it sounded like he had more impact with our young guys off the field, than he made on. Abhorred we got Kingsley. Should have gone for something else or at the very, very worst, kept Limbach for 1 more year. Neither were going to have much impact at senior levels, so at least we would have had a permanent forward for Coburg, who would have fit in with the younger players better.

Overall, Wallace must have had a positive impact on our list, because it couldn't have got any worse. Whether he's done enough (along with Miller), remains to be seen.

 

[gustiger12]

The club has come from the very long way back, even before Frawley came on board.

Frawley was always going to struggle as a new coach with no senior experience taking on our basket-case with its history of chopping nad changing coaches. Miller has been good for the club in that he has changed this aspect of our culture. We've had only two coaches now over an eight year period and it would be a major surprise if Wallace didn't survive his current contract.

The on-field performance contues to disappoint and we certainly appear to be taking some backward steps. Would it be any different if we had fallen in against Essendon and Brisbane and sneaked a couple of wins earlier in the season when we had the opportunity and didn't? I suspect not, because the real spectre that looms over this season is the Geelong game. This inept performance really cast a pall over Wallace's credibility.

What is should have shown him is that our side lacks structure. He can't go into games with only one ruckman, he can't use his CHB as a back up ruckman, he needs a FB and he can't pinch-hit with Pettifer at CHF.

The needs for the end of this season are obvious.

I'm not sure that the situation is completely lost however. Many of the kids are making good progress. Deledio is a gun who really only needs a bit of support, Tambling is still off the pace but has the tools to get there, Pattison will be a work-horse, Foley is a real revelation, Polo has good concentration and is very competitive, Thursfield is making progress, Polak is strong and skilled, Jackson is rising, White is a solid citizen, Hughes can lead, mark and kick and a range of others show promise but are not yet ready.

The midfield weakness can be addressed quickly if Edwards, Connors, White, Collins and Casserley make the progress that is expected. From what I have seen, they are all hard-running players who are still undersized.

Things change quickly. We won't be in this position in twelve months time.

:clap :clap Great Post TOT

 

[Coughlan24]

I wouldn't be surprised if we culled another 10 to 12 at least and i'd be happy as a pig in mud if we filled every spot with a youngster.

 

[Tiger74]

Well said Darth......although I have one question, is it true B1 is your son? Although if that is the case, does that make B2 Princess Leia, because I don't think B2 could pull off that hairdo :hihi

 

[notorious219]

Both Wallace and Miller (and Royal) are to blame.

Miller provides the players.

Royal fails to train them properly.

Wallace fails to get the most out of them.

You read my mind. And not one of these 3 overpaid bunnies takes responsibility for the 2007 disaster. The sooner we dispatch The Three Stooges the better.

 

[mb64]

It's time Wallace stopped laying all the blame on the Frawley era & start taking some responsibilty himself.Which era recruited Kingsley,Graham etc?

 

[gustiger12]

All of these seem to me to have quite an upside. The only one that hasn't really got me excited so far is Collins and that's because I've hardly seen him and there doesn't seem to be all that much talk about him. I'm impressed with Jacksons first year, looking forward to this draft.

Just for you info Pro a guy I know who is generally a good judge of young talent reckons Collins will become a very good midfielder when he fills out a bit. Like you I haven't seen him either, but this guy is usually pretty spot on (I hope)

 

[RROFO]

All of these seem to me to have quite an upside. The only one that hasn't really got me excited so far is Collins and that's because I've hardly seen him and there doesn't seem to be all that much talk about him. I'm impressed with Jacksons first year, looking forward to this draft.

Just for you info Pro a guy I know who is generally a good judge of young talent reckons Collins will become a very good midfielder when he fills out a bit. Like you I haven't seen him either, but this guy is usually pretty spot on (I hope)

Excellent. I can get excited about him too then. Thanks gus!

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Interesting how in his response Spud brings up the recruitment of Graham, Kingsley and P Bowden by Wallace, but doesn't mention any of the 'winners' he recruited, you know their names: Weller, Fleming, Nicholls, Houlihan, Hudson, Marsh, Morrison, there's an entire team of them. Frawley and his administration (that includes Miller for the last 2 years of it) went around picking up every hack they could find when they could have been drafting talented kids and rookieing other likely prospects and this is where it finds the club 2 and a bit years on. Don't let Frawley forget those brilliant support staff he picked up as well: Hutchison, Brittain and Crocker. The only one who had any success was Crocker in his playing days and that was because he was lucky enough to be a fringe player in a genuinely top team. The club was in trouble when Danny got there, but he left it a damn sight worse than when he entered.

 

[pahoffm]

Interesting how in his response Spud brings up the recruitment of Graham, Kingsley and P Bowden by Wallace, but doesn't mention any of the 'winners' he recruited, you know their names: Weller, Fleming, Nicholls, Houlihan, Hudson, Marsh, Morrison, there's an entire team of them. Frawley and his administration (that includes Miller for the last 2 years of it) went around picking up every hack they could find when they could have been drafting talented kids and rookieing other likely prospects and this is where it finds the club 2 and a bit years on. Don't let Frawley forget those brilliant support staff he picked up as well: Hutchison, Brittain and Crocker. The only one who had any success was Crocker in his playing days and that was because he was lucky enough to be a fringe player in a genuinely top team. The club was in trouble when Danny got there, but he left it a damn sight worse than when he entered.

Funny thing about mud-slinging.

Rarely does one throw mud at one-self.

 

[Scoop]

Frawley is unreal. Sure Wallace has made some questionable calls but the majority of them have been trying to patch up the horrendous mistakes of the previous regime.

Frawley is a bumbler of the highest order and I think Mr Miller would have been able to twist Frawley's ear and sell him on the concept of how close we were to winning a flag and the likes of Paul Hudson, Steven Sziller would be the icing on the cake and we don't need youngsters right now. I think the Miller vocie is slowly being faded out and we are slowly moving into a new era.

Evo is right we need to beef up the number of people we have watching the young kids to ensure we are bring in kids on informed viewpoints. Not hunches, feelings or someone tole me.