Global Warming | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Global Warming

BT Tiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 5, 2005
2,205
1,508
Warragul
Another view is he is trying to create a new monopoly by blocking competition from other hydrogen sources. That’s what I’d do as a capitalist.

Are you referring to blue and grey hydrogen alternatives? If he's guilt tripping others into green hydrogen then I'm all for it.
 

RoarEmotion

Tiger Superstar
Aug 20, 2005
1,863
1,570
Are you referring to blue and grey hydrogen alternatives? If he's guilt tripping others into green hydrogen then I'm all for it.

I’d imagine he would lobby government to ban them.

I’d prefer a price on carbon and let markets sort it out.

If green hydrogen wins in that scenario then great.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
12,284
9,666
Another view is he is trying to create a new monopoly by blocking competition from other hydrogen sources. That’s what I’d do as a capitalist.

Thats a pretty cynical view. Do you have the same thoughts on Elon Musk with Tesla? If governments don't engage with businesses then there is little chance of getting anywhere near the climate goals that the world has.
 

BT Tiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 5, 2005
2,205
1,508
Warragul
I’d imagine he would lobby government to ban them.

I’d prefer a price on carbon and let markets sort it out.

If green hydrogen wins in that scenario then great.

Pretty sure market forces have gotten us into the climate change mess in the first place, which is why i'm encouraged to see a big market player promoting economic benefits of green energy. Why does it matter if fossil fuel hydrogen sources are banned/lobbied against? Reckon that's a good thing.
 

RoarEmotion

Tiger Superstar
Aug 20, 2005
1,863
1,570
Pretty sure market forces have gotten us into the climate change mess in the first place, which is why i'm encouraged to see a big market player promoting economic benefits of green energy. Why does it matter if fossil fuel hydrogen sources are banned/lobbied against? Reckon that's a good thing.

We need to transition and transition hard but ideological opposition of fossil fuels whilst it may feel good has its own raft of massive negative consequences. Fossil fuel with ccs could be better than some of the other ‘green’ options and cause less net destruction.

Pricing externalities and then letting market forces take care of it will be he quickest way to make things happen IMO and will get to a much better answer than picking winners and losers. Europe has it right putting a co2 price at its borders.

Anywhere there is an issue, it is because externalities aren’t priced. Capitalism finds those gaps and exploits them hard. Whether it’s your life expectancy and cigarettes or unpaid child care of a partner at home that lets you work a 70 hour week the system sniffs it out.

The real solution will remain less demand (I.e. less people, more sharing of resources that sit in our homes and used once a month, goods that last for longer and don’t have planned obsolescence and are cheaply repairable etc etc - so we need to find a way to price those externalities too )
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
24,625
10,727
How much is that desal plant down at Wonthaggi still costing...? Talk about overreaction.
Went past Kardinia Dam on Cup Day and my mate pointed out inflow which he reckoned was from the desal plant. He knows about these things.

Amazing we are at 90% so quickly though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,853
1,270
Brisbane
Pricing externalities and then letting market forces take care of it will be he quickest way to make things happen IMO and will get to a much better answer than picking winners and losers. Europe has it right putting a co2 price at its borders.

Anywhere there is an issue, it is because externalities aren’t priced. Capitalism finds those gaps and exploits them hard. Whether it’s your life expectancy and cigarettes or unpaid child care of a partner at home that lets you work a 70 hour week the system sniffs it out.
Arbitrary CO2 prices do not price externalities. All they do is cause malinvestment because they have no reference to the action of parties involved. Only through preference demonstrated in action can we gauge what actors really value, and to try to deduce values from mathematical formulas (I’m assuming that’s how CO2 prices are determined) without the evidence of action, is a hopeless cause.
 
Last edited:

RoarEmotion

Tiger Superstar
Aug 20, 2005
1,863
1,570
Arbitrary CO2 prices do not price externalities. All they do is cause malinvestment because they have no reference to the action of parties involved. Only through preference demonstrated in action can we gauge what actors really value, and to try to deduce values from mathematical formulas (I’m assuming that’s how CO2 prices are determined) without the evidence of action, is a hopeless cause.

If you assume actors are rational and have perfect knowledge and fully bear the consequences of their actions over an infinite period of time.

None of these things are true.

I’d agree pricing co2e is educated guesswork at best. There is no perfect number.
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
24,625
10,727
If you assume actors are rational and have perfect knowledge and fully bear the consequences of their actions over an infinite period of time.

None of these things are true.

I’d agree pricing co2e is educated guesswork at best. There is no perfect number.

yeah, but there is a feedback mechanism - reduction in actual emissions, reinvestment in renewables and so on. This stuff is very measurable. So we have fulfilled G's "preference demonstrated in action" criterion.

For the first time we will also have a price related to the previously vague externality of CO2 emissions and ultimately climate change.

As emissions reduce towards zero the price can be amended or removed.
 

spook

Tiger Legend
Jun 18, 2007
16,147
11,647
Melbourne
It's La Niña. Going to be a wet summer across northern and eastern Australia, and colder than usual in the south.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
6,994
9,153
Melbourne
If you assume actors are rational and have perfect knowledge and fully bear the consequences of their actions over an infinite period of time.

Define "rational".

This is not an empty question because rational has many different definitions. The neo-liberal definition of rational means that you only take into account economic considerations when judging whether actions are rational. They seek to make everything an economic calculation.

Life is not just economics.

DS
 

RoarEmotion

Tiger Superstar
Aug 20, 2005
1,863
1,570
Define "rational".

This is not an empty question because rational has many different definitions. The neo-liberal definition of rational means that you only take into account economic considerations when judging whether actions are rational. They seek to make everything an economic calculation.

Life is not just economics.

DS

Fair point. Any answer has to be subjective as everyone assigns different values to economics, health, happiness, education, connectivity, animal welfare, environment, football team success etc etc.

I was plonking for a utilitarian view of rational but realise everyone’s is different…. QED none of these things are true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,853
1,270
Brisbane
If you assume actors are rational and have perfect knowledge and fully bear the consequences of their actions over an infinite period of time.

None of these things are true.

I’d agree pricing co2e is educated guesswork at best. There is no perfect number.
None of those things have any relevance to what I said except to say everyone acts to reduce their level of uneasiness and in this way all action is rational. Whether the methods they choose to met the ends sought after are logical is another question.

Prices allow for economic calculation to be performed because they reflect the action of market participants, which contains information linked to the demonstrated preferences of market participants. Market participants act on imperfect knowledge and take risks in search for profit (profits are obtained when you have successfully satisfied the demand of other market participants) or if they can afford it, for other goals not linked to profit such as providing charity, supporting family members, etc. The point I’m making is that some bureaucrat can’t just magic up a number and think that reflects the price of anything. It is pure fiction and it will act to distort price discovery and hence lead to malinvestment.

What is happening in European gas markets is a sign of the future whereby interventions to reduce fossil fuel investment will inevitably lead to general impoverishment. A reduction in the supply of fossil fuels will not be met by a reduction in the demand for them and the result is significantly reduced affordability of energy, necessitating the burning of coal again because when the choice is no heating or heating, you choose heating.
 
Last edited:

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
6,994
9,153
Melbourne
Global warming is an environmental issue, which is why economic calculations are not enough and why it is a market failure.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,853
1,270
Brisbane
Global warming is an environmental issue, which is why economic calculations are not enough and why it is a market failure.

DS
The pricing of environmental damage is very much apart of economic calculation under a market economy, what it requires is clearly defined and protected property rights. If Company A wants to dump their toxic waste into Joe farmer’s dam, they are not permitted to do so without Joe’s permission. Joe might require compensation to allow it to happen, he could ask for the waste to be treated first to bring the toxicity down he could ask for a monitoring plan to be established to ensure the waste isn’t toxic, etc. all of which company A needs to price into their cost structure to ensure they remain profitable.