Hawthorn's philosophy | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Hawthorn's philosophy

bullus_hit said:
Dyer'ere said:
2003
25 Hawthorn HARRY MILLER 11-Jun-85 174 78
41 Hawthorn ZAC DAWSON 22-Feb-86 195 79
51 Hawthorn MATTHEW BALL 21/02/1982 185 85
2004
2 Hawthorn JARRYD ROUGHEAD 23/01/1987 193 88
5 Hawthorn LANCE FRANKLIN 30/01/1987 196 87
7 Hawthorn JORDAN LEWIS 24/04/1986 186 87
21 Hawthorn THOMAS MURPHY 19/03/1986 189 83
26 Hawthorn MATTHEW LITTLE 3/01/1986 187 74
53 Hawthorn SIMON TAYLOR 18/08/1982 200 100
2005
3 Hawthorn XAVIER ELLIS 28/02/1988 186.3 71.7
6 Hawthorn BEAU DOWLER 16/12/1987 194.6 84
14 Hawthorn GRANT BIRCHALL 28/01/1988 191.9 84.4
18 Hawthorn MAX BAILEY 23/10/1986 205.8 93
22 Hawthorn BEAU MUSTON 1/03/1987 189 78.8
38 Hawthorn TRAVIS TUCK 7/09/1987 187.5 79.1
2006
6 Hawthorn MITCHELL THORP 25/12/1988 194.1 86.4
24 Hawthorn BRENT RENOUF 3/05/1988 200.3 92.5
33 Hawthorn JARRYD MORTON 5/10/1988 191 80.7
40 Hawthorn JOSH P. KENNEDY 20/06/1988 187 90
56 Hawthorn GARRY MOSS 5/07/1988 179.5 69.9


This is who the Hawks have taken at the past four ND meetings. I've included the 2003 selections. I don't think they serve any purpose other than to show a shift in philosophy from 2004 on.

Interesting that Wallace has openly stated that the 4:1 midfielder to bigman ratio has been the recruiting doctrine espoused by Richmond over the last couple of years, Hawthorn lon the other hand looks to have gone roughly 1:1 although one must consider they have transformed their spine from the 2001 season.

At a glance, 2004 looks to have been reasonably fruitful although I would have taken Griffen at 2 and replaced Lewis with a midfielder with a little more upside potential. Little doesn't inspire a lot of confidence either..................no bones about Taylor as most picks in the 50's are a 50/50 proposition at best.

2005 looks very promising draft with Birchall proving to be very AFL capable, Ellis and Dowler both extremely promising juniors and Muston (providing the knees hold up) a shrewd choice. Don't know about Bailey being so high but time will tell. Just as a footnote, I was interested to read that Colin Wiseby will never have a tap ruckman in his top 15 (including Leuenberger) due to the slow return on investment.

2006 I thought would be the great midfield draft for the Hawks but it wasn't to be - Selwood would have been my choice at 6 but Thorp has potential never the less. Renouf, was a strange choice in a draft this deep (in my humble opinion) and I believe there will be at least half a dozen mids who would have been better selections. Moss is a fly weight and will take 2-3 seasons to bulk up - definitely a project player.

I think realsitically the Hawks will remain in the bottom half of the ladder next year which may not be a bad result, if they can snare another top five selection and focus on bolstering their running stocks they will be well placed to plan for the imminent retirement of Crawford - same goes for the second round if the talents available.

I would think that the Hawks are still a couple of seasons away from really challenging and will also need to stiffen up their defence when it comes to taming the monster forwards of the game.

One final word, it will be interesting to see if the young brigade display loyalty to the club if success and stability doesn't come within the next season or two, this in my opinion is one of the big risks in adopting an all or nothing youth policy and with vultures like the EFC lurking in the shadows, one can never be too careful.

If we had taken Griffen at 2, we may of missed out on Franklin cause Dogs may have taken him at 3 of Richmond at 4 so you never know. I wouldn't want to take that gamble, he's one the one juniors we will be structuring our games around.

Lewis looks a good solid player already and once gets another couple of pre-seasons into him should improve just as any junior once he gets his weight sorted out, much like Watson from Essendon IMO. Looks very composed and unlike many drafted from his year is already excelling in the middle of the ground, with great stats and very limited game time.

Taylor was a late pick for insurance, we need him as backup at the moment so that is still justified with our lack of ruckman at this stage. Little looks a handy player, whether we need him or not yet is still debatable with our forward structure taking place over the next season or so. Roughead and Franklin have had only 2 years as key position players but both have made solid contributions on their day, especially Franklin, probably need 4-5 years before you can tell their true worth as I'm sure you have worked out having *smile* who still finding his feet.

The next draft, Ellis, Dowler, Muston, Tuck, Bailey, Birchall..... that's three outside mid/flanker types in Ellis, Muston Tuck that many say we haven't drafted... all look promising, and the big bonus is tuck at this stage who is a year in front of development than we thought and has built up nicely over the summer so far looking much bigger. Birchall had a dream debut, I didn't predict that, I don't know a lot about Dowler except that he's a pure full forward type lead player, suited to the modern game and Richmond were after him that year I believe. Bailey was taken high, but we needed a developing ruckman that year, and there were no guarantees he would last to the rookie draft with Collingwood rumoured to be keen on him at pick 21.

This year.. Renouf too high? That's debatable as some are saying we got a steal with 24 so I'll wait and see, he has potential to play as a key back as well, playing CHB for Southport Seniors in WA.... so I wouldn't rule him out as just a ruckman with pick 24. Morton another tall utility type play who is very mobile, Moss is small but quality as such a late pick, captain WA, good all round player, and Thorp was the player we were after at 6 given who was always going to be gone.

No guarantees ever in drafting but I'm pretty satisfied with how we've drafted to re-shape the list.

Runners/Outside types: Young, Ellis, Muston, Tuck, Birchall

Inside Mids: Lewis, Kennedy, Moss

Key position: Dowler, Franklin, Thorp, Roughead

2nd/3rd Talls: Little, Murphy, Morton,

Rucks: Bailey, McEntee, Renouf, Taylor

Pretty well balanced drafting IMO. We've got the posts in play first, with the key position, ruckman, inside mids etc whilst still adding some quality running players. This means over the next draft or two we can look to add more pace and running ability, which is possibly easier to find, costs less to trade for, and they develop quicker than the key position type players.

Only real blunder or thing I would change looking back on it (which is easier now 2 drafts later to see than it was then) is I'd taken a young ruck option at 26 (like Maric from Crows) rather than little in 2004 as he'd be coming on now ready to start playing some decent footy. Although Bailey is only one year behind and had a really promising start from a rookie ruckman.
 
realist said:
No guarantees ever in drafting but I'm pretty satisfied with how we've drafted to re-shape the list.

Runners/Outside types: Young, Ellis, Muston, Tuck, Birchall

Inside Mids: Lewis, Kennedy, Moss

Key position: Dowler, Franklin, Thorp, Roughead

2nd/3rd Talls: Little, Murphy, Morton,

Rucks: Bailey, McEntee, Renouf, Taylor

Nice list of juniors.
Just needs some speedy rovers & flankers to add to it.
You should pick those up in the next 2 years.

Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.
 
Phantom said:
Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

What exactly is "the window" Phantom and when will we be opening it?
 
rosy23 said:
Phantom said:
Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

What exactly is "the window" Phantom and when will we be opening it?

There's no I in team, but there most certainly is a me.

As someone who has been shown the door on a few occasions, I think I've well and truly earned my crack at that open window!

At the very least I deserve the right to push Ben Dixon head first through it and into retirement...
 
Only one shortarse under the old 6 ft 2 in the last three drafts.
Hope none of their big boys bulk up to much and get to cumbersome to pick the pill up off the deck.
Be interesting to see if they develop into a big power running side in about three years.
 
Phantom said:
realist said:
No guarantees ever in drafting but I'm pretty satisfied with how we've drafted to re-shape the list.

Runners/Outside types: Young, Ellis, Muston, Tuck, Birchall

Inside Mids: Lewis, Kennedy, Moss

Key position: Dowler, Franklin, Thorp, Roughead

2nd/3rd Talls: Little, Murphy, Morton,

Rucks: Bailey, McEntee, Renouf, Taylor

Nice list of juniors.
Just needs some speedy rovers & flankers to add to it.
You should pick those up in the next 2 years.

Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

Yeah bout 2009 is a good time frame to aim towards, will have a decent grounp developing and peaking at the same time, and Hodge, Mitchell, Willams etc will be well and truly senior players by then. Need to get the talls up and running and thats going to take a bit of patience so yeah, 2009, in between just aiming for improvement and the outside chance of breaking a finals spot.
 
Ghost of Punt Road said:
Realist, cn you really see Renouf as a backman in the AFL?

He has size and running capacity, but woeful kicking.

As a Tiger supporter,I can assure you as an expert that your backmen need to be very good kicks :)

Average kicking under pressue, could be improved IMO, far from awful, but definately isn't a strength.

I didn't say I saw Renouf as a backman particular, but saw more than just a ruckman. Great endurance, good reading of the play, if he improves his kicking could be a key back, but we did draft him as a ruckman who has potential to drop forward of back IMO.

Amazing what a few pre-seasons can do to a player. Some can't get over obvious defiencies.. (Lucy), and others thrive when given a chance and given some guidance (Swallow) over a year. Swallow was rumoured to lack the skills for a player his type, but would be one of Kangaroos best juniors (that's a combination of Swallow's ability and the Roos' poor list management over the last few years).
 
rosy23 said:
Phantom said:
Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

What exactly is "the window" Phantom and when will we be opening it?

The window is, basically, the "real" opportunity to win a premiership.
I see ours beginning to open about 2010/11.

We should be in the finals 2007/8, but that's not a window, that's only making up the numbers. Remember, we're still yet to recruit any junior key defenders.

As I said a couple of years ago, talls need a 3-5 year lead time. The longer we delay the recruiting those key backs, the longer the lead time. Alternatively, we enter the window with pre-existing holes.

As we've seen with the smalls & mediums that we've recruited, they only need 1-3 years lead time. You can pick them up easily.
 
Phantom said:
rosy23 said:
Phantom said:
Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

What exactly is "the window" Phantom and when will we be opening it?

The window is, basically, the "real" opportunity to win a premiership.
I see ours beginning to open about 2010/11.

We should be in the finals 2007/8, but that's not a window, that's only making up the numbers. Remember, we're still yet to recruit any junior key defenders.

As I said a couple of years ago, talls need a 3-5 year lead time. The longer we delay the recruiting those key backs, the longer the lead time. Alternatively, we enter the window with pre-existing holes.

As we've seen with the smalls & mediums that we've recruited, they only need 1-3 years lead time. You can pick them up easily.

Phantom you are very measured with your thinking but we still need to factor in the key ingredients of 1) Ticker 2) Experience and 3) a good coach. In theory the Hawks have recruited well but this premiership clock or window of opportunity (particularly concerning the likes of Richmond and Hawthorn is pure speculation). These are both very young sides capable of mediocrity or brilliance in the short term ie next 3 years. I would however favour Richmond's (window) in the shorter term due to having a proven coach and more experience (IMO) than the Hawks.

Also, I am not so sure that the Hawks Key back options are any better than ours. I personally would like to see *smile* at CHB but probably won't happen.
 
Harro12 said:
Phantom said:
rosy23 said:
Phantom said:
Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

What exactly is "the window" Phantom and when will we be opening it?

The window is, basically, the "real" opportunity to win a premiership.
I see ours beginning to open about 2010/11.

We should be in the finals 2007/8, but that's not a window, that's only making up the numbers. Remember, we're still yet to recruit any junior key defenders.

As I said a couple of years ago, talls need a 3-5 year lead time. The longer we delay the recruiting those key backs, the longer the lead time. Alternatively, we enter the window with pre-existing holes.

As we've seen with the smalls & mediums that we've recruited, they only need 1-3 years lead time. You can pick them up easily.

Phantom you are very measured with your thinking but we still need to factor in the key ingredients of 1) Ticker 2) Experience and 3) a good coach.  In theory the Hawks have recruited well but this premiership clock or window of opportunity (particularly concerning the likes of Richmond and Hawthorn is pure speculation).  These are both very young sides capable of mediocrity or brilliance in the short term ie next 3 years.  I would however favour Richmond's (window) in the shorter term due to having a proven coach and more experience (IMO) than the Hawks. 

Also, I am not so sure that the Hawks Key back options are any better than ours.  I personally would like to see *smile* at CHB but probably won't happen.

Time will tell.

As the adage goes,
A great team can make a great coach.
A great coach doesn't necessarily make a great team.

Or in Richmond's case,
Often the team can make the coach grate.  ;)
 
blx said:
Phantom said:
As the adage goes,
A great team can make a great coach.
A great coach doesn't necessarily make a great team.

didnt work for Grant Thomas  ;)

There were certainly some "unattended to" holes in the StKilda list.
That's why StKilda have largely blown their window,
and why Thomas got the sack.

Beware approaching a window with holes in your list, it can ruin the aspirations of a generation of talented footballers.
Just ask Benny Gale, Matty Knights & Paul Broderick.

Interesting though.
In 1993, the Tiges began the path hoping for a window of opportunity.
They went in without a CHB, had little depth in their kpps & midfielders.
Hopefully, the RFC has learnt something from the 90s.
 
Phanto,
I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding us being berefit of a decent CHD in 1993.
But you'd have to admit, Richmond certainly realised this and rectified their problems when drafting Stuart Wigney at the start of 1995. ;)
 
CyberKev said:
rosy23 said:
Phantom said:
Reckon you'll have definitely enterred the window by 2009.

What exactly is "the window" Phantom and when will we be opening it?

There's no I in team, but there most certainly is a me.

As someone who has been shown the door on a few occasions, I think I've well and truly earned my crack at that open window!

At the very least I deserve the right to push Ben Dixon head first through it and into retirement...
No argument from me,Cyberkev...
That Dixon is a first class *smile*....crickey,Id luv to smack him around the eyelids and put the tryhard in his rightful place........on the bench for Koo-Wee-Rup thirds......... >:(