Is tackling the key?

[datigesrule]

Good morning all - long time reader, never been a poster - until now!

Just been looking at the AFL stats for the year with partcular interest in "tackles". I have always bemoaned our lack of intensity in this department, particularly around stoppages and our forward line pressure. The AFL stats tell an interesting story. Clealry the standouts in the competition this year were WCE, Sydney, and Adelaide (1st, 2nd & 3rd right?). When you look at the tackling stats, they tell us that WCE had 10 tacklers in the top 100 for a total of 754 tackles, Sydney 10 (878) and Adelaide 8 (667).

To contrast this, the bottom sides stats were: Kangaroos 4 (289), Essendon 4 (323), Carlton 6 (399) - a huge difference. Then I looked at ours - 3 tacklers in the top 100 for a total of 214 tackles!! OUCH!! These were Tuck 72 (the top was James McDonald with 154! and Kirk and J Bolton both had around 140), Foley with 71, and Tivendale with 71 (I'd love to know how many of these he actually nailed).

To be in the top 100 you needed to have had 54 tackles (approx. 2.5 per game) but as you can see, the elite get 6-7 per game. Looking at our other on-ballers small forwards shows us where we need to improve:

Krakouer 51 (from 17 games) Ave: 3 (acceptable; good tackler; just doesn't get to enough contests)
Coughlan 36 (11) Ave: 3.3 (acceptable)
Hyde 48 (22) Ave: 2.2 (not acceptable; lack of pace over first few yards?)
Johnson 47 (19) Ave: 2.5 (whilst acceptable, should be our Kirk/Bolton and lifting to 5-6 per game)
Pettifer 32 (22) Ave: 1.5 (pathetic and one of the reasons why ball comes so easily out of our forward line; extremely slow over first few yards)
Polo 41 (17) Ave: 2.4 (on the way up; positive signs)
White 30 (11) ave: 2.7 (ditto; very good given game time; good pace and intensity)
Deledio 35 (21) Ave: 1.7 (not good enough; his one weakness; was sure at some times he had a shoulder injury; has all the ingredients for a tackler)


Does anyone else have any thoughts on this matter? Are there any kids in the draft that could help (e.g. Polo/White types) that we could pick up with lower picks?

 

[Tigers of Old]

Welcome datigesrule. Good post. :fing32

You are spot on. It's not just our tackling, our 1%s are well behind the top clubs also.

A few of us have been harping on about these poor KPI's in this Wallace coached side for a while.

Hopefully we can address this over the preseason.

Daniel Chick's last minute efforts in the Grand Final highlighted why they are so important.

 

[RROFO]

Good god, a football post! :clap

Good post, very interesting. I too have despaired at our tackling efforts and felt they were a big reason why we are where we are as a football team. Never had the stats though. Good work.

Someone should post this to Terry. May also be part of the reason we have blowout losses against the better sides.

 

[Bill James]

Disagree. The table below from Pro Stats http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/team_rankings?year=2006&ts=DA&sr=4 ranks all teams for 2006 based on the average difference in number of tackles versus their direct opponents week by week. You will note that while Richmond 15th Westcoast is 14th and Brisbane is 1st.  Even Sydney regarded as the pressure team averages less tackles than their direct opponent over the season.

Increasingly the tackle count reflects the specific game plans of the two sides playing rather than ladder position. Often a high tackle count simply means you spent the whole day chasing opposition players whereas a low tackle count means that you used the ball well and kept posession so did not have to apply a lot of pressure.

Follow the link to pro stats and sort the teams based on your hobby horse stats and see which stats are significant in terms of ladder position.

Rank	Team	Tkl
1	Melbourne	8.8
2	Brisbane	8.6
3	Western Bulldogs	8.2
4	Kangaroos	4.8
5	Adelaide	4.2
6	Carlton	4
7	Collingwood	2.7
8	Essendon	0.9
9	Sydney	-0.9
10	Port Adelaide	-2.2
11	St Kilda	-2.5
12	Fremantle	-3.3
13	Geelong	-6.8
14	West Coast	-7.1
15	Richmond	-8.5
16	Hawthorn	-11.1

 

[datigesrule]

I think you're missing my point Bill. It is the stats that you are showing that are open to interpretation. Yes, if you are getting a heap of tackles in the backline, there is a fair chance you are losing. What I am looking at is that the good clubs seam to have an abundance of hard at it, tackling midfielders and small forwards that put constant pressure on the opposition around stoppages - think Sydney Swans - they just don't let the ball loose from stoppages until their man has it (usually via a parade of hard shepherds). Agree with previous post - it's probably more generally 1%ers - we are not the best shepherding side either.

Look at the top 30 tacklers below and tell me who you WOULDN'T have at Richmond. I have highlighted the ones I would have (age aside).

1. James McDonald Melbourne 143
2. Brett Kirk Sydney Swans 142
3. Jude Bolton Sydney Swans 134
4. Tyson Stenglein West Coast Eagles 126
5. Shaun Burgoyne Port Adelaide 115
6. Matthew Bode Adelaide 114
7. Chris Judd West Coast Eagles 112
8. Daniel Harris Kangaroos 109
9. Daniel Cross Western Bulldogs 108
10. Simon Black Brisbane Lions 108
11. Luke Ball St Kilda 104
12. Cameron Bruce Melbourne 100
13. Nick Dal Santo St Kilda 96
14. Amon Buchanan Sydney Swans 96
15. Luke Hodge Hawthorn 90
16. Paul Chapman Geelong 89
17. Matthew Boyd Western Bulldogs 89
18. Josh Carr Fremantle 88
19. Scott Thompson Adelaide 86
20. Clint Bartram Melbourne 86
21. Brent Reilly Adelaide 85
22. Robert Shirley Adelaide 85
23. Adam Bentick Carlton 84
24. Shane O'Bree Collingwood 84
25. Adam Goodes Sydney Swans 84
26. Simon Goodwin Adelaide 83
27. Nic Fosdike Sydney Swans 82
28. Leigh Montagna St Kilda 81
29. Luke Power Brisbane Lions 81
30. Tyson Edwards Adelaide 79

 

[Harro12]

There is a difference between a tackle and an effective tackle. Same goes for possesions. A player can apply a tackle and not make it stick and the ball falls loose to an opponent who runs off with the ball. Tackles resulting in possesion to your team and or a free kick are what really matters.

 

[TigerNV]

Funnily enoungh, I see these particular stats and think of the upside of improvement yet to come in our side.

You'd expect a young side like ours to gradually improve on these KPI's as the younger bodies harden and
gain better endurance.

 

[AngryAnt]

I love it when a side tackles hard and applies good pressure a la the Swannies.

I think however it does come down to different gameplans and approaches, and reacting to the other side.

 

[Nik]

Exactly Harro Richo. I got so sick of seeing us lay a "tackle" only to watch the player being tackled (tacklee??) have heaps of time to stand there, pick out a teammate and dish off a handball, while our guy just hung around his waist!
We need to develop a proper tackling style ie pin the arms and bring the player to the ground (not to give away a free for in the back either) so they know they've been tackled. The tackle Hammill did on *smile* was a perfect example of this, although of course you wouldn't want to cause an injury like that!

 

[Brettstigers]

Its my view also that the amount of tackles laid isn't the primary issue. For mine, above and beyond this, is the capability of the midifeld to demostrate poise in the tackle and to still get it to a team-mate. This thread has spoken about the number of effective tackles laid, I suppose I am coming at this same point but from the opposite direction - a good side who has midfielders who have pace and poise will reduce the number of effective tackles against them and win the ball forward despite legitimately good efforts by their opposition. In the really tough finals games it was the midfield who can accept the good tackles that were always going to be put on them by quality opposition and still win the ball forward that won the game.

For Richmond it can be argued that we don't lay enough tackles and that we need to improve the number of effective tackles. For mine though we are comparatively useless against these quality sides in terms of poise in possession under pressure and in clean handling and disposal under pressure.

Yes we have a glut of in and under players, what we don't have is a glut of quality in and under players. You couldn't tackle Robert Harvey, you can't tackle Judd and Cousins has evasive speed, I mean the list goes on. We aren't strong enough to stay over the ball and not skilled enough to win contested possession against premiership level midfields - well lets call a spade a spade - against any top eight midfield other than Collingwood.

I don't expect this gap to close in the next couple of years as our new midfield rotation of Foley, Raines (2008), Deledio and Tambling will all have L plates on, P Plates in 2008.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

There is a difference between a tackle and an effective tackle.  Same goes for possesions.  A player can apply a tackle and not make it stick and the ball falls loose to an opponent who runs off with the ball.  Tackles resulting in possesion to your team and or a free kick are what really matters.

Funnily enoungh, I see these particular stats and think of the upside of improvement yet to come in our side.

You'd expect a young side like ours to gradually improve on these KPI's as the younger bodies harden and
gain better endurance.

I love it when a side tackles hard and applies good pressure a la the Swannies.

I think however it does come down to different gameplans and approaches, and reacting to the other side.

Tend to agree with all of these comments. Our tackles per match in 2006:

Tkl Rnd  Opp    Res
69 13 Co W47
65 12 Ha L41
60 2 St L11
60 16 Sy L48
57 19 Br W82
56 9 Ge W20
53 1 WB L115
50 17 St L103
46 18 WB L22
45 10 Fr L11
44 21 Es W16
43 4 Br W14
42 7 Sy L118
41 3 WC L46
40 11 Ka W35
37 6 Es   W2
37 20 Ca W45
35 8 Ad   W3
35 14 PA W38
32 22 WC L88
30 5 Ca   W8
25 15 Me L18

We won 8 from 13 when our tackle count was below average (45.5), and 3 of 9 when above. Tackling differs in importance between matches. Don't think it's cause for concern yet and would expect the figures to improve in the next couple of years.

 

[GoodOne]

I agree that the Tigers arent great tacklers in the scheme of things. However with respect, isnt it pointless counting the tackles of a midfielder who is around the ball alot more to others on the field. Isnt it also a bit unfair to compare the tackling of forward players to backline players, considering a forward's job is to create space (be attacking) where a defender's is to mark their man.

I like Bill James figures, which compares tackle count differences between teams as more meaningful, and as he stated West Coast were 14th in that department. So where does that leave us in the 'tackle' theory?

 

[Bill James]

I think you're missing my point Bill. It is the stats that you are showing that are open to interpretation. Yes, if you are getting a heap of tackles in the backline, there is a fair chance you are losing. What I am looking at is that the good clubs seam to have an abundance of hard at it, tackling midfielders and small forwards that put constant pressure on the opposition around stoppages - think Sydney Swans - they just don't let the ball loose from stoppages until their man has it (usually via a parade of hard shepherds). Agree with previous post - it's probably more generally 1%ers - we are not the best shepherding side either.

Look at the top 30 tacklers below and tell me who you WOULDN'T have at Richmond. I have highlighted the ones I would have (age aside).

Fair Cop. Have listed top 10 for tigers average per game 2006. Tivva number 1, and mostly youngsters the field which is encouraging.

Rank	Name	Games	Stat
1	Greg Tivendale	22	4.3
2	Nathan Foley	21	4.1
3	Shane Tuck	22	3.8
4	Danny Meyer	8	3.8
5	Andrew Krakouer	17	3.5
6	Kane Johnson	19	3.4
7	Matthew White	11	3.4
8	Mark Coughlan	12	3.3
9	Dean Polo	17	3.3
10	Richard Tambling	21	3.3

BTW last year Prostats published a review of effective tackles as a percentage of tackles and Tivendale led the entire AFL.

 

[Harro12]

I think Tambling, Meyer and of course Lids will improve not only in number of tackles but effectiveness. Tambling and Meyer as they fill out and to a lesser extent increase their aerobic capacity and Lids as he increases his aerobic capacity.

 

[tigers#7]

I think it plays a big part of the game. Just the intimidation and to make the opposition think twice when they've got the ball is invaluable. Unfortunately we seriously lack in this area, and hope to improve.

 

[Brettstigers]

How do people rate Richmond's ability to weather strong and consistent tackling midfields. Its my opinion that we are well down. For example whenever I see Tivva going in to get his own ball I despair because he usually goes down so fast in the tackle it makes your eyeballs spin. Its actually one of the reasons I don't rate Tivva, he is an outside receiver or a negating player that is all he can do. (Not trying to turn this into an anti-Tivva thing here I just don't like him in our midfield roation)

Also for consideration is the stat against Richmond of ease of outside receives from the opposition. I believe I read on this forum that we are 15th or 16th regarding numbers of clean opposition outside receives (apologies if I have the terminology wrong). This can indicate a few things. The first is low fitness, the second is low effective tackle rate (skill, speed, body size) and the third is that it is likely we have had multiple players drawn in to tackle the same person freeing an opposing player for the final receive. Anyone who has played any sport (other than cricket) will know how dangerous that is.

 

[TigerArmySoldier01]

Look if Chris Judd is on the list, then we want our boys on that list!!!

Seriously though, being able to break a tackle for a midfielder is a huge skill, look at the eagles and swans midfields, how often do you see their players burst away from a pack wif one player hanging off them and another 2 trying 2 get a hand on them.

IMO AFL players are under sized especially considering the unlimited use of the interchange. Yeah they need good aerobic capacity but they should have a lot more size, which would give alot more power. Take a rugby player and get him in the guts, i reckon he'd run through and break the line. Personally i think alot of AFL teams worry 2 much abt endurance instead of increasing muscle mass! Hit the gym boys! get ripped!