Is this an example of what happens when you throw too much at a young player?

[tiger1966]

so clarko at hawthorn has stood up and axed players that couldnt make it after been in the system for a few years.
same cant be said about a few of our players .Petts should of gone end of last year, Bowden maybe as well,(Joel)
JON if he was on the Hawks list he would of been chopped by now.Unless our club developes the benjamins to make hard calls we will never be able to close the gap on cats and hawks.

 

[jayfox]

Re: Is this an example of what happens when you throw too much at a young player

Zac was a better goal kicker than defender.

........for the opposition.

 

[wayne]

Zac Dawson - just not good enough, never looked like it to me. Nothing to do with "being put to the sword".

Muscles McGuane was also thrown in the deep end, playing on O'Loughlin in a 100 point thrashing way before he was ready.

He is still paddling away and improving all the time.

 

[mexican_radio]

wayne that is a very funny avatar mate...made me LOL

 

[Tiger_Shark]

The Hawks have axed Luke McEntee, Garry Moss, Zac Dawson and Tim Clarke.

You'll remember the media fanfare that went with Clarkson's sink or swim treatment of Zac Dawson. Was it right or wrong?

wouldn't matter. a good player will get over it.

remember Hird played on Ablett Snr in his 1st year for part of the game where he kicked 14 goals. made him look hopeless on several occasions. didn't harm his career though.

 

[pahoffm]

McEntee, Willits, both suggested high picks in their draft year that just haven't made it. Think Phanto was keen on both wasn't he? Big boys at high pick numbers can be very risky............

Was fairly keen on Willits in 2004. Rated him about the same as Pattison. Both were at the Knights. Patto went at #16, Willits at #19. For Port, they've since recruited the two Westhoff boys, so Willits becomes less a priority for them.

McEntee was a year later in 2005. It was an ordinary draft pool that year. From memory, my favourites that year were Hughes for #8, then Bower for our 2nd round pick, then Mills for the 3rd round. Warnock was my favoured ruckman that year but I must admit to being swayed by the majority opinion that he was too skinny.

Both Hughes & Bower turned out ok. Unfortunately Mills has just been delisted. But I was right in that it was an inferior draft pool.

 

[Phar Ace]

Thanks for the heads up on that Phanto The 04 draft is starting to drop like day old flies now. Apart from a few elites, will be interesting to see if falls off as much as 05.

The tread question was not a statement of fact be me, or an opinion. I just find it facinating at the shift on opinion on this. Many, many times on PRE we read how ginving young kids time is the best recipe, that reasonable grooming in VFL first, earn their spot, protect them from the bigger bodies etc etc, and when an opposition kid gets publically humiliated (as happened in the media), little to no credence is given to his abnornal footy education - he just isn't good enough becomes the standard line. I haven't made a close study of him - his skills may be average - just recall the media fanfare and thought "not many kids could cope with that"..... (even some Pre-enders struggle :hihi )

Perhaps I've spent too long in the field of self-esteem

 

[jayfox]

Was fairly keen on Willits in 2004. Rated him about the same as Pattison. Both were at the Knights. Patto went at #16, Willits at #19. For Port, they've since recruited the two Westhoff boys, so Willits becomes less a priority for them.

I think it is less about the Westhoff's and more about the fact that Willits is a very average footballer.

McEntee was a year later in 2005. It was an ordinary draft pool that year. From memory, my favourites that year were Hughes for #8, then Bower for our 2nd round pick, then Mills for the 3rd round. Warnock was my favoured ruckman that year but I must admit to being swayed by the majority opinion that he was too skinny.

Both Hughes & Bower turned out ok. Unfortunately Mills has just been delisted. But I was right in that it was an inferior draft pool.

Do you really think that Hughes would have been worth pick 8 now in hindsight though? I reckon that he is still very speculative to even make it at this stage and that was only using pick 24. Hindsight may show that the clubs who allowed him to slip were right. I think thus far he has been a worthwhile risk for 24, but pick 8 would definitely have been overpaying for what he has shown thus far. As for Mills, his kicking was always his problem and I think it found him out in the end. I always thought he was too underskilled to really make it at AFL level. As for JON, I didn't even have him in the top 20. I am still amazed that we pulled that surprise and it has really come back to bite us.

 

[Streak]

Interesting Moss didn't make it.

Looked promising as a junior. Went early teens in the draft from memory.

He was certainly hyped up over here in the West.

 

[Phar Ace]

Do you really think that Hughes would have been worth pick 8 now in hindsight though?

If JOn was an 8, Cleve was a 1. Given our selections, Cleve was definately an 8, JON the 24 and Casserly

 

[checkside]

Pretty sure Moss had a fare few injuries

 

[Dyer'ere]

Re: Is this an example of what happens when you throw too much at a young player


I'm not a subscriber to the view that Dawson's career suffered due to too much exposure. TBH I can't think of a player who has suffered from too much exposure in anything but a physical sense. Luke Ball and Justin Koschitzke suffered from too much physical exposure.

 

[pahoffm]

Do you really think that Hughes would have been worth pick 8 now in hindsight though? I reckon that he is still very speculative to even make it at this stage and that was only using pick 24. Hindsight may show that the clubs who allowed him to slip were right. I think thus far he has been a worthwhile risk for 24, but pick 8 would definitely have been overpaying for what he has shown thus far. As for Mills, his kicking was always his problem and I think it found him out in the end. I always thought he was too underskilled to really make it at AFL level. As for JON, I didn't even have him in the top 20. I am still amazed that we pulled that surprise and it has really come back to bite us.

I think, in 2005, our pick #8 left us one or two picks outside the elite bunch of boys that were certainties to make it in the AFL.

Basically, in that draft pool, anything past #6 or #7 was going to be speculative.

Round Pick Drafted By Player Current Team Games Since Drafted
1 Priority Carlton Marc Murphy Carlton 57
2 Priority Collingwood Dale Thomas Collingwood 63
3 Priority Hawthorn Xavier Ellis Hawthorn 36
1 4 Carlton Joshua Kennedy West Coast 29
1 5 Collingwood Scott Pendlebury Collingwood 55
1 6 Hawthorn Beau Dowler Hawthorn 3
1 7 Essendon Patrick Ryder Essendon 52
1 8 Richmond Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls Richmond 9
1 9 Brisbane Mitchell Clark Brisbane 22
1 10 Fremantle Marcus Drum Fremantle 17
1 11 Western Bulldogs Shaun Higgins Western Bulldogs 32
1 12 Melbourne Nathan Jones Melbourne 50
1 13 West Coast Shannon Hurn West Coast 36
1 14 Hawthorn Grant Birchall Hawthorn 65
1 15 Geelong Travis Varcoe Geelong 34
1 16 Adelaide Richard Douglas Adelaide 38
1 17 Adelaide Darren Pfeiffer Carlton 7
1 18 Hawthorn Max Bailey Hawthorn 4
1 19 Essendon Courtenay Dempsey Essendon 10
2 20 Carlton Paul Bower Carlton 24
2 21 Collingwood Danny Stanley Collingwood 4
2 22 Hawthorn Beau Muston Hawthorn 0
2 23 Collingwood Ryan Cook Collingwood 12
2 24 Richmond Cleve Hughes Richmond 16
2 25 Brisbane Wayde Mills Brisbane 16

Care of footywire, these were the top 25 picks, and how many AFL games each has played till now.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2005&t=N&s=P

 

[Streak]

Pretty sure Moss had a fare few injuries

Gee, bad luck for him then.

 

[dcstar]

I think, in 2005, our pick #8 left us one or two picks outside the elite bunch of boys that were certainties to make it in the AFL.

Basically, in that draft pool, anything past #6 or #7 was going to be speculative.

Round Pick Drafted By Player Current Team Games Since Drafted
1 Priority Carlton Marc Murphy Carlton 57
2 Priority Collingwood Dale Thomas Collingwood 63
3 Priority Hawthorn Xavier Ellis Hawthorn 36
1 4 Carlton Joshua Kennedy West Coast 29
1 5 Collingwood Scott Pendlebury Collingwood 55
1 6 Hawthorn Beau Dowler Hawthorn 3
1 7 Essendon Patrick Ryder Essendon 52
1 8 Richmond Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls Richmond 9
1 9 Brisbane Mitchell Clark Brisbane 22
1 10 Fremantle Marcus Drum Fremantle 17
1 11 Western Bulldogs Shaun Higgins Western Bulldogs 32
1 12 Melbourne Nathan Jones Melbourne 50
1 13 West Coast Shannon Hurn West Coast 36
1 14 Hawthorn Grant Birchall Hawthorn 65
1 15 Geelong Travis Varcoe Geelong 34
1 16 Adelaide Richard Douglas Adelaide 38
........

The kid Hawthorn took at #6 was in a car accident before the draft, so he was a very speculative choice by them and they knew it. Given that, there is really one standout failure in that top 16, unfortunately for us.

JON should have been given a one year contract after his initial draft contract, but at Richmond we puff out our chests and extend the contracts of young players who have done basically nothing - will we ever learn?

 

[the claw]

I think, in 2005, our pick #8 left us one or two picks outside the elite bunch of boys that were certainties to make it in the AFL.

Basically, in that draft pool, anything past #6 or #7 was going to be speculative.

Round Pick Drafted By Player Current Team Games Since Drafted
1 Priority Carlton Marc Murphy Carlton 57
2 Priority Collingwood Dale Thomas Collingwood 63
3 Priority Hawthorn Xavier Ellis Hawthorn 36
1 4 Carlton Joshua Kennedy West Coast 29
1 5 Collingwood Scott Pendlebury Collingwood 55
1 6 Hawthorn Beau Dowler Hawthorn 3
1 7 Essendon Patrick Ryder Essendon 52
1 8 Richmond Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls Richmond 9
1 9 Brisbane Mitchell Clark Brisbane 22
1 10 Fremantle Marcus Drum Fremantle 17
1 11 Western Bulldogs Shaun Higgins Western Bulldogs 32
1 12 Melbourne Nathan Jones Melbourne 50
1 13 West Coast Shannon Hurn West Coast 36
1 14 Hawthorn Grant Birchall Hawthorn 65
1 15 Geelong Travis Varcoe Geelong 34
1 16 Adelaide Richard Douglas Adelaide 38
1 17 Adelaide Darren Pfeiffer Carlton 7
1 18 Hawthorn Max Bailey Hawthorn 4
1 19 Essendon Courtenay Dempsey Essendon 10
2 20 Carlton Paul Bower Carlton 24
2 21 Collingwood Danny Stanley Collingwood 4
2 22 Hawthorn Beau Muston Hawthorn 0
2 23 Collingwood Ryan Cook Collingwood 12
2 24 Richmond Cleve Hughes Richmond 16
2 25 Brisbane Wayde Mills Brisbane 16

Care of footywire, these were the top 25 picks, and how many AFL games each has played till now.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2005&t=N&s=P

hmm for me people are saying what a poor draft it was. when looking at that 25 theres 9 who look to be struggling. one of those pfieffer was delisted and picked up by carlton i reckon he will be okay. 3 others of those 9 have had chronic injury.
interesting to note only 2 talls have made significant inroads one birchall is a flanker. the other ryder very athletic. it was also interesting to note hawthorn who took a risk injury wise not on one player in the top 22 but 2.

what is also interesting is the remaining players that made up the 2nd round. sorry dont have games played.
2 26 ibbotson
2 27 addison
2 28 riggio
2 29 mckinley
2 30 lower
2 31 west project ruckman
2 32 vince
2 33 gilbert
2 34 sphanger kpp
2 35 owen

apart from owen delisted and west project ruckman all have played a reasonable amount of games i would guess. theres not a lot of misses in the first two rounds and a lot of those who are struggling are either tall and take time or are trying to overcome serious injury.
i think it shows the importance of early picks even in shallow drafts. it seems to me drafts are only shallow to clubs who regularly get draft picks wrong.
it also seems to me rfc used just 3 nd picks because of the percieved shallow draft it seems we couldt get one of those picks right putting all your eggs in one basket is fraught with danger.

 

[linuscambridge]

mcentee was a rookie.

willits went at 19 in 2004.and was later demoted to the rookie list.
port have lost thompson11 willits 19 from the 2004 draft, along with trading picks 27 and 45 for shattock and 34, shattock is no longer there and 34 was used on james ezard who also is no longer there.to top it all of they used 35 on deluca who is on thin ice and 51 on eckerman. it looks like the only player they will have left from the 2004 drafts is surjan who was taken in the psd.

Pearce?