Justice?

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
3
1eyedtiger said:
........
And sorry Rosy but there's no ' Poor Sofina' about it. If it was the father who had killed his baby child, people would be calling for his head and he'd be facing a lengthy prison sentence, mental illness or no mental illness. But since it's the mother, it's okay. No harm done. Off ya go. She'll be right.
.........
Who said there's no harm done? The harm is catastrophic. A baby has died. A mother and family etc have to live with that forever. You can't judge another's experience based on your own. There are no set rules for depression. You weren't in a forced marriage, in a foreign country, living in hostels, flooded with hormones from pregnancy and birth. This is so tragic. It's not for us to judge the situation. I'm so glad I don't have to. It would tear me apart.
 

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,303
33
rosy3 said:
Who said there's no harm done? The harm is catastrophic. A baby has died. A mother and family etc have to live with that forever. You can't judge another's experience based on your own. There are no set rules for depression. You weren't in a forced marriage, in a foreign country, living in hostels, flooded with hormones from pregnancy and birth. This is so tragic. It's not for us to judge the situation. I'm so glad I don't have to. It would tear me apart.
Totally agree. I've seen extremely capable successful women with complete family support fall apart with PND. It's extremely dangerous for both mother and child and ended in tragedy here.
 

1eyedtiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 2, 2007
1,132
0
rosy3 said:
Who said there's no harm done? The harm is catastrophic. A baby has died. A mother and family etc have to live with that forever. You can't judge another's experience based on your own. There are no set rules for depression. You weren't in a forced marriage, in a foreign country, living in hostels, flooded with hormones from pregnancy and birth. This is so tragic. It's not for us to judge the situation. I'm so glad I don't have to. It would tear me apart.
You know nothing about me Rosy.

And what part of that drives someone to kill their own baby?

Think what you like for the murderer Rosy but too bad. She should either be behind bars for a very long time or placed in a psychiatric institute. Releasing a murderer with mental illness into the community is irresponsible at best. Community service for murder is a joke. Once again, if the father had done this, people would have been calling for his head, maybe you included. Because men don't suffer from mental illness or go through tough times. That's the domain of woman so they can make excuses for their shitty behaviour.

:mad: :mad: :mad:
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
3
1eyedtiger said:
You know nothing about me Rosy.

...
Ok I agree with that so please enlighten me. Have you been in a forced marriage? Have you given birth as a result of that and not had the luxury of support from partner, family and/or friends? Have you lived your days in shelters and hostels? Have you had a negative effect from hormones as a result of giving birth? Anything else about you doesn't interest me in your judgement of this situation.
 

1eyedtiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 2, 2007
1,132
0
And to add to this Rosy, there IS a set rule to depression. And that's that women can use it as an excuse to murder someone. And it's completely disrespectful to the REAL sufferers of depression. Just like all the women who come out with false accusations of abuse in the family courts are nothing but complete bitches who make the lives of the REAL victims of domestic abuse even harder.

Anyone who kills someone else DOES NOT do so because of depression alone.

Murderers are psychotic.

So stop blaming depression. And stop the stigma of depression. You really are an ignoramus at times. At any medical practitioner who claims that depression alone can 'compel' someone to murder someone else should be deregistered as they're doing far more harm than good. But hey, that's normal in today's world when you want everything to be politically correct.
 

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,303
33
1eyedtiger said:
You know nothing about me Rosy.

And what part of that drives someone to kill their own baby?

Think what you like for the murderer Rosy but too bad. She should either be behind bars for a very long time or placed in a psychiatric institute. Releasing a murderer with mental illness into the community is irresponsible at best. Community service for murder is a joke. Once again, if the father had done this, people would have been calling for his head, maybe you included. Because men don't suffer from mental illness or go through tough times. That's the domain of woman so they can make excuses for their sh!tty behaviour.

:mad: :mad: :mad:
I think your response is pretty revealing.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
3
1eyedtiger said:
..... You really are an ignoramus at times.....
After reading your comments I can't stop laughing at that. Oh the champagne comedic irony. As you were :rofl :hihi :spin
 

1eyedtiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 2, 2007
1,132
0
rosy3 said:
Ok I agree with that so please enlighten me. Have you been in a forced marriage? Have you given birth as a result of that and not had the luxury of support from partner, family and/or friends? Have you lived your days in shelters and hostels? Have you had a negative effect from hormones as a result of giving birth? Anything else about you doesn't interest me in your judgement of this situation.
Why the hell should I enlighten you to my circumstances? It's none of your business and it's not something I advertise. I didn't want to post here but I'm sick of the whole 'depression' excuse for all the shitty stuff people do. Goes to show how LITTLE most people actually know about depression. Go rob a bank, 'I was depressed', kill a baby 'I was depressed'.

You show me a murderer who claims 'depression' and I'll show you'll someone who has multiple mental issues for which they need treatment.

NOT COMMUNITY ORDERS.
 

1eyedtiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 2, 2007
1,132
0
rosy3 said:
After reading your comments I can't stop laughing at that. Oh the champagne comedic irony. As you were :rofl :hihi :spin
And that just confirms my statement. You laugh at someone who has suffered from depression. You really are a *****. I'm ashamed of barracking for the Tige's with people like you. You can kindly delete my account.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
3
Wow. Jeepers creepers. I'm not justifying the actions or suggesting a punishment. As I said I find it a terribly sad situation and am glad I don't have to consider the appropriate punishment. I assume/hope the woman is being/has been treated for her depression. I'm not laughing at anyone because of their depression. Maybe a course of anger management 1eyed? I won't delete your account due to your obvious issues with me (despite me having had depression). I'll leave it to you to show some self control and leave if that's what you want. :)
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
3
Just read a report on this situation. Forced marriage. Separated from husband. Estranged by family. Subject of domestic violence. Homeless and living in hostels. Suffering depression. Heartbreaking it could get to the point it did. Sad. Sad. Sad.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Superstar
Apr 27, 2010
2,367
0
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-42095074

Anyone see this one in the news yesterday? I was an early teen at the time of the murder of toddler, James Bulger in 1993. Totally horrified me at the time. Still does. Even more so because I have two littlies myself now. I know this case refers to Britain, but there are quite a few parallels in the failings of our justice system. Especially when we think of the events leading up to the murder of Jill Marr.

One of the killers of toddler James Bulger has been recalled to prison suspected of having child abuse images on his computer.
It is the second time Jon Venables has been sent back to jail for the same suspected offence.
In a statement, James' mother Denise Fergus said: "Venables has now proved beyond any doubt what a vile, perverted psychopath he has always been."
The 35-year-old was recalled last week but has not yet been charged.
He was first recalled in 2010, following his release in 2001 after serving eight years for the murder of James, aged two, in 1993.
James BulgerImage copyrightPA
Image caption
James Bulger was two when he was abducted and killed in 1993
Ms Fergus went on to say: "I predicted Venables would re-offend unless they kept a very tight rein on him and I pray that now, someone from the UK government will finally listen to me."
She said "what hurts me most is the way the probation service has tried to cover this up", adding she was only told on Wednesday night that Venables was taken back into custody a week ago.
Mrs Fergus said it was "clear that they were trying to keep this quiet, until they got a call from the media".
She said she received "a hurried call" from the probation service at 20:40 GMT with "few details given, just that he had breached his terms of the licence and returned to prison", which left her "extremely upset, angry and feeling insulted".
She said she would consider making a formal complaint to the probation service.
Denise fergusImage copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image caption
Denise Fergus "feared" Venables would re-offend
A Ministry of Justice (MoJ) spokeswoman said it takes the duty of updating victims' families "extremely seriously".
"A dedicated victim liaison officer contacts families as soon as the offender is charged, but we regret the additional distress this has caused in this case.
"We want to reassure Mrs Fergus and Mr Bulger [James's father] that a liaison officer will continue to stay in regular contact with them as the case progresses."
On 12 February 1993, James - just a few weeks short of his third birthday - was reported missing by his mother from outside a butcher's shop in the New Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle, Merseyside.
CCTV images of James Bulger being led awayImage copyrightPA
Image caption
CCTV images showed James Bulger being led away by the two boys in a shopping centre
CCTV images revealed he had been lured away by Venables and Robert Thompson, both then aged 10.
His body was found two days later on a railway line. He had been stripped from the waist down, paint had been thrown in his eyes and he had been beaten to death with bricks and a metal bar.
Thompson and Venables were arrested and charged within days. They were both convicted at Preston Crown Court of James's murder, in November 1993.
In 2001, the pair were released - with new identities - from secure children's homes on life licence, meaning they can be recalled at any time.
Analysis: Daniel Sandford, BBC home affairs correspondent
What appear to be images of child abuse were found on a computer linked to Jon Venables last week, during a routine visit.
He was recalled to prison immediately.
The police force investigating him has not been named, as it might reveal where he has been living under a second new identity.
Venables was jailed for life in 1993 for murdering and torturing two-year-old James Bulger.
He was first released - on licence - in 2001, but jailed again in 2010 for possession of child abuse images.
He was released a second time in 2013, at which point James Bulger's parents said they were "filled with terror".
The parole board will now have to decide whether - or when - it is safe to release him again, and will take into account if he appears to be re-offending in a similar vein.
Venables was recalled to prison in 2010 after accessing images of child abuse and breaching his parole conditions by visiting Merseyside.
He had developed drug and drink problems, started behaving anti-socially and had revealed his real identity to friends.
Venables was released again in 2013 with a second new identity.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
3
Panthera Tigris said:
........

I know this case refers to Britain, but there are quite a few parallels in the failings of our justice system. Especially when we think of the events leading up to the murder of Jill Marr.

........
Had a friend on the parole board in regards to Jill's murderer. Amazing how their hands were tied and what they thought didn't count for much. The personal toll was very high considering the consequences of him going free.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Superstar
Apr 27, 2010
2,367
0
rosy3 said:
Had a friend on the parole board in regards to Jill's murderer. Amazing how their hands were tied and what they thought didn't count for much. The personal toll was very high considering the consequences of him going free.
Another one that comes to mind Rosy (in the Australian context) was the Daniel Morcombe abduction (most likely sexual abuse) and murder. The man convicted of that murder had a multiple conviction history for particularly heinous aggravated sexual crimes against children. Absolutely was a known risk to the community and most likely not capable of rehabilitation. Should never have been out, with the ability to commit that heinous crime against Daniel Morcombe.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
22,717
146
Melbourne
Always thought Arthur Freeman was out of his tree but the defence psychiatrist's evidence wasn't accepted in that case. What he did was so shocking that no judge was going to acknowledge any mitigating factor.
 

tigertim

something funny is written here
Mar 6, 2004
21,318
45
Panthera Tigris said:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-42095074

Anyone see this one in the news yesterday? I was an early teen at the time of the murder of toddler, James Bulger in 1993. Totally horrified me at the time. Still does. Even more so because I have two littlies myself now. I know this case refers to Britain, but there are quite a few parallels in the failings of our justice system. Especially when we think of the events leading up to the murder of Jill Marr.

One of the killers of toddler James Bulger has been recalled to prison suspected of having child abuse images on his computer.
It is the second time Jon Venables has been sent back to jail for the same suspected offence.
In a statement, James' mother Denise Fergus said: "Venables has now proved beyond any doubt what a vile, perverted psychopath he has always been."
The 35-year-old was recalled last week but has not yet been charged.
He was first recalled in 2010, following his release in 2001 after serving eight years for the murder of James, aged two, in 1993.
James BulgerImage copyrightPA
Image caption
James Bulger was two when he was abducted and killed in 1993
Ms Fergus went on to say: "I predicted Venables would re-offend unless they kept a very tight rein on him and I pray that now, someone from the UK government will finally listen to me."
She said "what hurts me most is the way the probation service has tried to cover this up", adding she was only told on Wednesday night that Venables was taken back into custody a week ago.
Mrs Fergus said it was "clear that they were trying to keep this quiet, until they got a call from the media".
She said she received "a hurried call" from the probation service at 20:40 GMT with "few details given, just that he had breached his terms of the licence and returned to prison", which left her "extremely upset, angry and feeling insulted".
She said she would consider making a formal complaint to the probation service.
Denise fergusImage copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image caption
Denise Fergus "feared" Venables would re-offend
A Ministry of Justice (MoJ) spokeswoman said it takes the duty of updating victims' families "extremely seriously".
"A dedicated victim liaison officer contacts families as soon as the offender is charged, but we regret the additional distress this has caused in this case.
"We want to reassure Mrs Fergus and Mr Bulger [James's father] that a liaison officer will continue to stay in regular contact with them as the case progresses."
On 12 February 1993, James - just a few weeks short of his third birthday - was reported missing by his mother from outside a butcher's shop in the New Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle, Merseyside.
CCTV images of James Bulger being led awayImage copyrightPA
Image caption
CCTV images showed James Bulger being led away by the two boys in a shopping centre
CCTV images revealed he had been lured away by Venables and Robert Thompson, both then aged 10.
His body was found two days later on a railway line. He had been stripped from the waist down, paint had been thrown in his eyes and he had been beaten to death with bricks and a metal bar.
Thompson and Venables were arrested and charged within days. They were both convicted at Preston Crown Court of James's murder, in November 1993.
In 2001, the pair were released - with new identities - from secure children's homes on life licence, meaning they can be recalled at any time.
Analysis: Daniel Sandford, BBC home affairs correspondent
What appear to be images of child abuse were found on a computer linked to Jon Venables last week, during a routine visit.
He was recalled to prison immediately.
The police force investigating him has not been named, as it might reveal where he has been living under a second new identity.
Venables was jailed for life in 1993 for murdering and torturing two-year-old James Bulger.
He was first released - on licence - in 2001, but jailed again in 2010 for possession of child abuse images.
He was released a second time in 2013, at which point James Bulger's parents said they were "filled with terror".
The parole board will now have to decide whether - or when - it is safe to release him again, and will take into account if he appears to be re-offending in a similar vein.
Venables was recalled to prison in 2010 after accessing images of child abuse and breaching his parole conditions by visiting Merseyside.
He had developed drug and drink problems, started behaving anti-socially and had revealed his real identity to friends.
Venables was released again in 2013 with a second new identity.
Not in this article but another I read yesterday. The British government have spent $8m on rehabilitating and incarcerating and protecting/changing his identity. If true that’s just incredible.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Superstar
Apr 27, 2010
2,367
0
tigertim said:
Not in this article but another I read yesterday. The British government have spent $8m on rehabilitating and incarcerating and protecting/changing his identity. If true that’s just incredible.
Yes read that somewhere too tim. Add to that, the amount spent on his partner in crime, Robert Thompson. To be fair, not as much spent on Thompson as Venables, as Thompson has been incident free in comparison. But still multi-millions spent on him too.
 

KnightersRevenge

Baby Knighters is on board.
Aug 21, 2007
6,020
0
Ireland
1eyedtiger said:
Why the hell should I enlighten you to my circumstances? It's none of your business and it's not something I advertise. I didn't want to post here but I'm sick of the whole 'depression' excuse for all the sh!tty stuff people do. Goes to show how LITTLE most people actually know about depression. Go rob a bank, 'I was depressed', kill a baby 'I was depressed'.

You show me a murderer who claims 'depression' and I'll show you'll someone who has multiple mental issues for which they need treatment.

NOT COMMUNITY ORDERS.
For goodness sake 1eyed. You have brought your own situation into this. You have used your own experience of depression to judge that of this woman. You did that. Your situation does not have anything to do with what was happening mentally, physically or emotionally to this woman. You cannot know how she was feeling. Very few of us can. No-one here has excused what happened. We simply don't know what measures have been taken in relation to her mental health. I would be very surprised if she was given a bag of sweets and map and told to toddle off out of the courtroom and into the world.
 

tigertim

something funny is written here
Mar 6, 2004
21,318
45
James Gargasoulas, life with the possibility of parole after 46 years. Life without parole would’ve been better.