Leading Teams and Learning | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Leading Teams and Learning

hopper

Vile weed!
Jul 28, 2004
6,271
117
Darwin
There is a fair bit of reference in online rags today about the Leading Teams program at the Cats and Saints and what it has done to their culture and discipline. While I don't know the details of the program, I would welcome the club doing something tangible about developing leadership. I think that the two areas we've done poorly in the last two decades is leadership and learning (read as player development).

I'll explain a little of where we might have gone wrong and what the real focus needs to be.

Leadership
For years we have tried to recruit leaders rather than develop them.

There are very few full time professions where leadership is expected of people in their 20s. But we seem to think that we can recruit 17 year olds ready for the job with just a little time and watering.

It doesn't work like that. Leadership skills develop through a commitment to continual improvement and mastery of your current level.

Only when we have a framework for young men to go through in order to develop leadership for a tough, physical and competitive workplace will we be able to stop hoping that Cotchin will be captaincy material in 2-3yrs (and also stop scrabling for the best of an ordinary bunch as Captain - Johnson and Newman) and actually have a standout field of leaders to choose from (like Geelong do).

Think about the number of Geelong players that could walk into our club and be the best suited on the list to captain. There's the difference.

Learning
We have relied heavily on Terry's long fizzled T@FE (Tigers At Football Education) where players are locked in lecture theaters with apparent masters of their position. At a glance it seems that Darren Gaspar should be able to teach full back, that Flea should be able to teach roving, that Michael Roach should be able to teach goal kicking, etc etc.

The problem with this methodology is that it lends itself to the notion that having irritable bowel syndrome means you are an expert on how toilets work! Spending a long time doing one thing one way, does not make you an expert.

Learning football skills (and executing in a tough, physical and competitive) environment is about setting targets for continuous improvement in the target person and developing strategies and timelines about achieving it. Your performance is then measured by whether you reach these targets - not whether you've attended the right sessions on punching from behind, icing the clock, the rolling zone, or how to scratch your nuts without the cameras noticing.

I contend that this type of "expert" based learning is possibly what has stunted Thursfield - instead of turning him into Darren Gaspar, he should be working towards targets that make him the best fullback in the land - or at least that he can be.

I also think it wastes the time of older players who have perhaps learned all their tricks but have not been challenged to focus and improve something in their game or their contribution to the team goals. Thus Richo running around and dominating the forward line for 10 years while other forwards spectate.

I think other clubs have cottoned on far earlier than us. Hawthorn's appointment of Clarkson, and Essendon with Alan Richardson are examples. Both clubs knew that determined people with a focus on learning will outperform a former player (often a 1 trick pony) with the gift of the gab who just describes to others what they did instinctively during their heyday.

The lack of focus on player development through addressing the areas most needed to work on has left players exposed to a player development "curriculum" that's a mile across in breadth, but only an inch thick. As an example, Deledio should be running around Punt Rd with Cuz until he vomits, learning how to break a tag. Not sitting in a room learning the correct technique for a running bounce (perhaps where Raines should be).


Just my 5c from a distance of about 4000km, but I've bled with you all watching Richmond over the last 25 years and I think we are trying to repair a Ferrari with tools from the 1800s. Time to wake up and get ahead (not with) the times and trends.

Our board are at a critical juncture because their task is going to be to determine the type of coach (and coaching staff) we need to improve. They will then need to develop the correct process for unearthing that candidate. I just hope they are prepared to pass up the "sexy" names floating around for the right candidate - or we have LEARNED nothing ourselves from Wallace's appointment/tenure.
 
Nice post teach.............. :clap

Footy clubs are multiple shades of grey. Good things and bad things. These guys, footballers, are both and assets and people and finding the right balance between skill development and self esteem management is always a moving target. So much hinges on it, that it is too much for one or two people that's for sure.
 
Don't look at the 'outcomes' of a well run club - look at what created them. I think the main thing you should learn from the whole Wallet 'episode' is not to put all the eggs in one basket.

Over at Hawthorn we were very lucky. Dunstall took over for a while when things were going badly. He had no interest in running the show long term - he was only interested in getting the club back on it's feet. He set about getting all the right people in to run things and he set up checks and balances to make sure everybody was subject to scrutiny. We got a new Pres, a new CEO, an new coach and an entirely new football department. And not one of them had control of everything, even our Coach. And nobody got 'long-term' contracts, no matter who they were; even our Board and our Pres now have fixed terms and cannot stay forever. As a bonus, our coach was so cheap in the early years that many of his 'helpers' were effectively free.

You, on the other hand, gave complete control to a couple of blokes and then installed them for the long term.

Make sure you get the right people and get the right structures in place to keep them under control and, if necessary, move them on quickly and easily. Things will go wrong so you need to be able to fix them when they do. It wouldn't hurt to move as many people along as possible and start afresh. Don't look for another saviour - they don't exist. Good luck with it all.
 
Very insightful post, Hoppy. Your background as a teacher allows you to see some things that others can't.

Here's my two cents worth.

Firstly, the list is nowhere near as bad as many think. Wallace has set about rebuilding this squad from absolutely nowhere and he has actually put together a reasonable Under 23 squad. In years to come, that will be his legacy, just like the 23-28 group is Frawley's legacy. In my opinion, we will look back in a few years' time and see a solid core group. Many will disagree but the proof will be in the pudding. Let's argue the toss on that one during 2010-2015.

Secondly, Wallace came along with very specific ideas as to the sorts of players he wanted, the way he wanted them prepared and the way he wanted them to play. He has spent five years consistently trying to build a model, for better or for worse. It was fair and reasonable that he be given the opportunity to see his vision through. As it turned out, he has been a failure because his ideas were the wrong ones. He has favoured athleticism over football skills in recruiting, speed over muscle in preparing his players and has instructed them to play in circles during matches. It didn't work and has ultimately cost him his job. He has had limited periods of success but has always been sorted out by his opponents, indicating that his processes were not robust enough to stand up under the intense pressure of AFL Footy. He is now just another failed coach because his vision and his ideas were wrong, but at least he had them. Shame, I liked much of what he was trying to achieve.

Thirdly, there is a culture problem at the club. It manifests itself through weak leadership which, under pressure, filters through to all levels of the club. Our players start the season hoping to play finals, they run out hoping to win, they kick for goal hoping to score, they chase the ball hoping to get it, the supporters trun up to matches hoping to support. You get the picture. No-one at the club really expects any of these things to actually happen, they are all just hopeful. I hope Kevin Sheedy finds his way onto the board at some stage because he is one person who genuinely believes that these things can happen. Going through the Leading Teams project may help put some of this culture behind us.

Like many businesses that struggle, RFC have a long and expensive wagon train but the wagons all point in different directions. Someone has to come along and line them all up properly. The playing list needs to get bigger, stronger and more skilful, the coach needs to implement processes that are more robust and the culture needs to change before anything meaningful occurs.

That's my two cents worth. Even the Herald-Sun costs a lot more than two cents.
 
Well done Hopper.

The sooner the RFC embraces all modern methods, the better.

It has embraced some, there are still more.

Cheers.
 
Compelling reading here gentlemen...great to read your pragmatic and thoughtful appraisals rather than the tsunami of negativity that drenches most of PRE of late. Now back to the whinging and using emotive, overstated language :blah :blah posts...all of you!
 
hopper said:
LeadershipFor years we have tried to recruit leaders rather than develop them.

Ok, I'm probably taking you out of context here Hopper, but I don't think you can make a leader. It's something you are either born to do, or not born to do. You can have someone who is a born leader without the knowledge on how best to utilise those skills (which I think is what you're saying), but not every person can be taught this is how you lead. It simply doesn't work that way.

Phantom said:
The sooner the RFC embraces all modern methods, the better.

Phantom, I gotta say what a crock of sh!t. Just because it's modern, doesn't mean it's good. Embracing vs Investigating is what I'd challenge. They should be looking for the best way to do things, constantly reviewing how they work, and how they can get better. Sometimes the accepted norms are actually the best. I've been through several leadership and development courses, and a lot of times they can be jumping on fads and bandwagons. I'll give an example.

There used to be a preferred method of giving "constructive" feedback that we called the sandwich. Basically start off nice and friendly, go into the crux of the problem you are trying to rectify, then finish off with a friendly moment again so the person didn't feel victimised or like it was overly critical. It was the most modern, revolutionary way of giving feedback. It would be groundbreaking stuff.

Nowadays, it's frowned upon giving feedback in such a manner, because the over reliance on positive reinforcement actually causes the person to disregard the feedback, as it's importance has been downplayed by the 2 happy touchy huggy feelings at the start and end.

Now, there's a different fad. I'm betting in a couple of years, that will change too.

I prefer to tackle an issue with honesty, knowing full well that most people don't actually want to fail, and if you give them a way of improving, they'll undertake it.
 
What is this Bond bloke's role? I remember him arriving to much fanfare but what has he done? Wouldnt this sort of claptrap be part of his role?
 
Play Centre said:
What is this Bond bloke's role? I remember him arriving to much fanfare but what has he done? Wouldnt this sort of claptrap be part of his role?

It's a good, timely, question.
 
I swear I remember Nathan Brown on the footy show talking about having the Leading Teams mob down at the club spending time with the list
 
I don't know if Leading Team has, but I know that there's a group of 6 young blokes the club has put through some leadership program. They may have put the senior players through, but I was only given the names of the younger guys.

Have a look at those who've been to press conferences so far this year, and you'll see a few of them stepping up to the plate.
 
ZeroGame said:
I swear I remember Nathan Brown on the footy show talking about having the Leading Teams mob down at the club spending time with the list

I remember Nathan saying that, but at roughly the same time, my workplace was undergoing a leadership program with Leading Teams. Our Leading Teams facilitator (Craig Biddiscombe) stated that Richmond was not one of their clients and that Hawthorn and Geelong were their only AFL clients at that time.
 
Leaders can be born or they can be made. I've seen kids come thru into the Navy at 17, you can tell who's got leadership in them and who hasn't, but 3 or 5 years later some of the one's who didn't have leadership in them back then now do.

That comes back to training and a belief in one's own abilities.

Feedback is critical, I'm not a person that is keen on sitting a person down, going thru their last 6 months with them and ending all with a nice wrap up. Its better to cut to the chase, say what needs to be said, if there are issues how those issues are going to be corrected and over what timeframe. Then the person sitting down with you has got the message clear cut and that they need to do this or that to improve on their current performance. All this PC touchy feely there there you still get your bonus etc etc is nothing more than pure BS to me IMHO.

What the Richmond Player Leadership Development programme is, at best is anyone's guess. Surely they must have something but whatever it is it appears to be lacking.

The other issue is that leadership is definitely NOT for everyone, so player development must acknowledge that are address other areas of individual players and get them to work on those for their own benefit. Again not sure if the Tigers have such a progamme in place.

Hopefully, the Mid Year Review will address all this, it had better after what we all witnessed on Tuesday.