Life membership debate

[AngryAnt]

Those things are all factors, what I'm saying is they are insignificant compared to the most important factor, which is playing talent and that is where the luck comes in.

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. We've consistently improved low draft picks and rookie picks to competent players who fit our system and buy in totally. That's not luck.

Drafting players is a lottery, no matter how much science and preparation clubs put in. If you are lucky enough to assemble a list of talented players who are mentally and physically equipped for success then all of a sudden all of the factors you describe are seen as being pure genius, when in reality the margin between the best and worst club in those areas in very small.

Agree to some extent. Higher picks have a better chance of success but the majority still fail. I'd argue it therefore becomes more about culture, management and system. In terms of raw talent spread across clubs it would be fairly random and thus fairly even. So the intangible and tangible decisions and strategies a club makes to maximise and develop talent become even more important.

There is no better example of this than RFC - talent pool between 2016-2017 similar, results completely different.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Those things are all factors, what I'm saying is they are insignificant compared to the most important factor, which is playing talent and that is where the luck comes in.

Drafting players is a lottery, no matter how much science and preparation clubs put in. If you are lucky enough to assemble a list of talented players who are mentally and physically equipped for success then all of a sudden all of the factors you describe are seen as being pure genius, when in reality the margin between the best and worst club in those areas in very small.

Obviously draft position is a factor in a clubs ability to pick up premium youngsters, but.
Recruiting is probably the biggest factor in how much opportunity for success a club has. It' should never come down to luck, it should always come down to firstly knowing what standards your club sets and what your club requires from it's draftees. Then ensuring your recruiting team does all it's due diligence to find the best possible talent who match your criteria. Every club will always have the occasional miss with youngsters that's something unavoidable to a degree. However it should never come down to guesstimates or luck, we've done that crap for donkeys years n it doesn't work.
As Balmey is happy to spruik, the kids can all play at this level, they've all got ability. Then it's all about the management, teachings and culture n integrity of the group the players are brought into.
Blokes like Lambert, Stack, Pickett. No club wanted them, we looked, we thought, we offered an opportunity n set some criteria now every club is wondering how we got them for nothing n what made them fit. Even Dusty, had some issues early n hit a couple of minor speed humps, but we set standards n criteria n supported him n omg how good? Compare our growth n development over the last ten years to Smelbourne or Carlscum. That's not luck, that's doing a lot of little things right.

 

[Baloo]

2017 we were seen as the worst team to win a Premiership. But more from an angle that we won it with a teams of players that people thought were average. We took those players and moulded a game style to make full use of their strengths rather than trying to mould them. End result was a brand new game style and a premiership.

That is a direct result of thinking and implementing smarter than the others. Theres a reason others are trying to copy the Richmond way and it's not because we're the luckiest

 

[Al Bundy]

I personally dont mind providing a life membership to a player, even if its his 1st (eg Pickett), that are in a winning premiership side.

Premiership are so hard to get. Took 37 years to get one alone. I personally like that change. Dont care what other clubs do or what other people think. Its a great reward for providing the ultimate strived success.

 

[Total Tiger]

Off the top of my head, Craig Lambert.

He'd be one if he didn't leave and play for the Bears.

 

[AngryAnt]

My argument would be that success builds culture and leadership rather than the other way around.

Take Adelaide for example. If they had beaten us in 2017, Pyke would have been a genius, Walker's power ranger dribble would have been inspired and they would probably have been in contention in 18, 19 and beyond.
Instead they lost and all the people at the club who were elite enough to take them to a dominant season, all of a sudden had no idea what they were doing. They didn't all lose their ability overnight, the difference between a strong club and a mess was how well the players performed.
Melbourne from 18 to 19 were a bit the same, as were the Bulldogs after their flag.

As for the comments on drafting, a players success or not at the elite level generally comes down to factors that are completely unpredictable.

They all have talent, they all have skill and we can screen them physically. When you talk to them they all say the right things and seem motivated and keen.

What we can't tell is how much it means to them really, how much sacrifice they are prepared to make, how much courage they have, how good a bloke they will be, how good a team mate they will be, what sort of partner they will find etc etc....

You can take Tom Boyd at number 1 when he presents as the perfect AFL specimen, but it is impossible to know by the time he is 22 his priorities will have changed so much that football is of little interest to him.

And that is the stuff that makes the difference. Every AFL club has knowledgeable staff, every club trains their players to an elite level, every club has coaches with a game plan that will work if it is executed well. Like Al Pacino said it's the inches that matter.

Our success was built on having a brilliant backman in Rance, a brilliant forward in Riewoldt and one of the best midfielders of all time In Dustin. All high picks and guys who overcame considerable weaknesses and challenges to become seriously elite players. Each of them could easily have gone the other way but they had what was needed internally to overcome.

Worth remembering when we took Dustin in the draft Tom Scully and Jack Trengove were clearly ahead of him as total packages. Had Melbourne not taken Trengove we would have taken him instead. If that's not luck, I don't know what is.

If success breeds good culture and leadership then explain our 2016 and 2017 seasons.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Worth remembering when we took Dustin in the draft Tom Scully and Jack Trengove were clearly ahead of him as total packages. Had Melbourne not taken Trengove we would have taken him instead. If that's not luck, I don't know what is.

From memory Melbourne went with the "safe" personalities over Martin, whereas Richmond hasn't shied away from players considered risks.

Similar with us taking Fiora ahead of Pavlich or Tambling ahead of Franklin. If you goof at the top of the draft, it stands to reason that at least one other club is going to benefit.

We still make mistakes e.g. Yarran, but I like to think the difference is that we now make many more good decisions than bad, as well as having the fortitude to follow through on them.

After struggling with Aboriginal players for a long time, all of a sudden we turn out with 4-5 each week and they are contented and part of a successful unit. Too much has gone right for it to be attributed to luck at the draft.

 

[DavidSSS]

There's luck, and success helps a lot.

But when you look at the way some teams develop players while others don't I reckon there is a lot to be said for how a club brings in young players and how they are treated, what they are taught etc. You make a fair bit of your own luck, not all, but a lot.

DS

 

[TigerMasochist]

That's the perfect example really, halfway through 2017 we were losing games from unloseable positions and the fingers were pointing at our on-field leadership and the way we were coached.

Skip forward a few months and we were mindfullness and honesty sessions and Richmond men. Success came, a culture was created and we started to live it.






Both good examples of money making money I reckon.

Our young players now come into a successful environment, play a lot of VFL footy and come into a senior side when they are ready and play a role in a good team.

Gold Coast won't be developing their players any differently than we are in most areas but they don't have that environment, just like we didn't in the past.

Ty Vickery and Cal Coleman-Jones had very different experiences as draftees, physically and mentally. Ditto Sydney Stack and Troy Taylor or anyone else we draft now versus then.

We tend to wax lyrical about how much our player development has improved and our staff are put on a pedestal but the reality is they are probably no better or worse than anyone else in the competition, they just have the luxury of perfect conditions in which to bring players through.

Question then is. How did we end up with these perfect conditions? Just tripped over a branch n face planted in a cow pat of supreme perfection, or perhaps a whole bunch of people all looked carefully at what they were doing right n what they were doing wrong. Then made some changes and adjustments to improve on what we were doing right and reduce or eliminate what we were doing wrong.
Three years of almost nearly pretty bloody good n then a disaster of nightmare proportions ( 2016 ). it wasn't " luck or fang shooey " that turned the club around.

 

[AngryAnt]

That's the perfect example really, halfway through 2017 we were losing games from unloseable positions and the fingers were pointing at our on-field leadership and the way we were coached.

Skip forward a few months and we were mindfullness and honesty sessions and Richmond men. Success came, a culture was created and we started to live it.

So we made some decisions about how to change our approach based on experience and intuition. We learned, got smarter, experimented and it paid off. We still had exactly the same talent on the park, we just changed our coaching and management.

CASE CLOSED MUTHAFARKEN

 

[AngryAnt]

What I'm saying is we were already doing all of those things, most of which were in the pre-season but we were inept in round nine and genius at the end of the year.

The reality is nothing changed except winning.

And before the preseason? We had 2016. And we changed things at the end of 2016 and into the preseason and into 2017.

Oh, but you say we were *smile* in round 1 and great in round 9? All that changed was winning? Nope. We still changed things in the early part of 2017, and we got better at what we were doing.

Anyway, we have to agree to disagree Richo. I think decisions actually matter and have the potential to improve performance, and you think its all luck, and somehow if we get lucky by winning then somehow we keep getting luckier and luckier.

Ciao bello

 

[tigerlove]

I think most would agree that luck doesn't make success and this does not in turn create culture. It culture and planning that creates luck and success. History has shown that getting high draft picks doesn't on it's own create success. This is why many teams find themselves at the bottom half of the ladder for a very long time. This mimicks life really. You create your own luck.

 

[YinnarTiger]

This reminds me of the debate about what happened in the first bee's *smile* of a nanosecond during The Big Bang.

 

[eZyT]

Were the VFA premiership players awarded retrospective life memberships?

Death memberships?

Throw them into the crowd after every H&A win.

Id grab one for my pop.

Theyre not gonna drink the bar dry

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Death memberships?

Throw them into the crowd after every H&A win.

Id grab one for my pop.

Theyre not gonna drink the bar dry

Maurice Rioli got one last year, as did Jimmy Parker who preceded even our VFA flags.

 

[AngryAnt]

I think most would agree that luck doesn't make success and this does not in turn create culture. It culture and planning that creates luck and success. History has shown that getting high draft picks doesn't on it's own create success. This is why many teams find themselves at the bottom half of the ladder for a very long time. This mimicks life really. You create your own luck.

Yep. There was a reason we only made finals once in 20 years, and it wasn't because we were unlucky.

 

[AngryAnt]

I must confess to perhaps having some cloudy vision in this debate.

After 20+ years in elite sport and spending the past 5 years at two AFL clubs, one successful, one not so much, I've found myself out of a job for the first time for no reason than the senior coach is sacked and the new coach wants a fresh approach.

Sorry to hear that TBR.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

After 20+ years in elite sport and spending the past 5 years at two AFL clubs, one successful, one not so much, I've found myself out of a job for the first time for no reason than the senior coach is sacked and the new coach wants a fresh approach.

Did both clubs have a so-called "culture of excellence"? Or neither?

Did the successful club know where they were going, or did it seem more like a happy accident? Was it led by people who'd been to the top before?

Did both clubs have equally stable administrations and finances?

Obviously you are closer to the industry than me, therefore I respect your opinion. It's just that, even now, Richmond is sometimes referred to as a team of role players bolstered by a few stars; while I think that undersells our team, I can see where they're coming from. Pretty much every club has a few stars... Where do you think the difference is between Richmond and less-successful clubs - the quality of the stars, or the foot soldiers?

Good luck finding something else. Maybe you can become a gazillionaire like Chief at BigFooty.

 

[amc11]

I must confess to perhaps having some cloudy vision in this debate.

After 20+ years in elite sport and spending the past 5 years at two AFL clubs, one successful, one not so much, I've found myself out of a job for the first time for no reason than the senior coach is sacked and the new coach wants a fresh approach.

All the best for the next stage of your working life. Opportunities for new growth and direction often come along unexpectedly so trust and be ready for the silver lining to appear.

 

[eZyT]

I must confess to perhaps having some cloudy vision in this debate.

After 20+ years in elite sport and spending the past 5 years at two AFL clubs, one successful, one not so much, I've found myself out of a job for the first time for no reason than the senior coach is sacked and the new coach wants a fresh approach.

Having said that I have analysed over and over how each position panned out and it is clear the successful side and the unsuccessful side had staff that were almost identical in capacity and performance.

You could be a contrarian consultant?