list comparison 2004 / 2009

[waiting]

This is an exercise that i wanted to do. I wanted to compare the list that Danny had in his disposal and the one Terry started this year full of promise.

I also wanted to see how many of those players are still at the club and how many have been delisted, retired or traded away.

Would the 2004 side beat the 2009 side. ?

On paper it looks talented but for many reasons cant deliver.

How many players remain from that 2004 side=13 . This has surprised me.

New faces 2009= 27

As you can see the list has been turned over. I dont have the time to compare how other sides have done with turning over their lists. Maybe someone can do this and see how we compare.

I guess though it isnt subjective as you have to look at what types we recruited and which areas we neglected.

Such as ruck, key position players, skillful players, more rookies, big bodied types etc.

Maybe part of the problem lies not only in the game plan, lack of skill, confidence but more so that we have still many of the players back in 2004 who havent experienced success, have been part of the culture of mediocrity and failure.

What do you guys think ?



Player: List 2004:

Kyle Archibald
Justin Blumfield
Joel Bowden
Nathan Brown
Wayne Campbell
Mark Chaffey
Mark Coughlan
Marc Dragicevic
Aaron Fiora
Tim Fleming
Simon Fletcher
Nathan Foley
Darren Gaspar
Alex Gilmour
Ray Hall
Brett Hartigan
Rory Hilton
Adam Houlihan
Chris Hyde
Daniel Jackson
Kane Johnson
Andrew Kellaway
Duncan Kellaway
Andrew Krakouer
Ben Marsh
Shane Morrison
Kelvin Moore
Chris Newman
Bill Nicholls
Brad Ottens
Kane Pettifer
Andrew Raines
Matthew Richardson
Thomas Roach
David Rodan
Matthew Rogers
Jay Schulz
Greg Stafford
Greg Tivendale
Shane Tuck
Luke Weller
Ty Zantuck


List 2009

Bowden, Joel
Brown, Nathan G.
Collins, Andrew
Connors, Daniel
Cotchin, Trent
Coughlan, Mark
Cousins, Ben
Deledio, Brett
Edwards, Shane
Foley, Nathan
Graham, Angus
Hislop, Tom
Hughes, Cleve
Jackson, Daniel
Johnson, Kane
King, Jake
McGuane, Luke
McMahon, Jordan
Moore, Kelvin
Morton, Mitch
Newman, Chris
Oakley-Nicholls, Jarrad
Pattison, Adam
Pettifer, Kayne
Polak, Graham
Polo, Dean
Post, Jayden
Putt, Dean
Raines, Andrew
Rance, Alex
Richardson, Matthew
Riewoldt, Jack
Schulz, Jay
Simmonds, Troy
Tambling, Richard
Thomson, Adam
Thursfield, Will
Tuck, Shane
Vickery, Tyrone
White, Matthew


Thoughts

waiting(still)

 

[Col.E.Kurtz]

The one good thing about the current team is that the core is largely young. The old guys who drag our average list up are mostly not performing except for Richo. So while are team is bad and has massive holes it does have half a young structure in place and when we lose the old guys we probably won't go backwards that far. The 2004 team was bad and old, nothing good going for it.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

I make the numbers as follows, excluding rookies (listed players in 2004, listed players in 2009, players listed in '09 who weren't listed in '04):

Cb 04 09 Di
-----------
Ad 38 40 28
Br 37 40 27
Ca 37 38 27
Co 39 40 30
Es 38 40 27
Fr 39 38 21
Ge 40 40 20
Ha 39 38 27
Me 38 40 28
NM 39 40 28
PA 39 40 25
Ri 39 40 29
St 37 39 22
Sy 38 40 23
WB 40 39 25
WC 39 40 25

Fremantle's low turnover is extraodinary considering its lack of success. It's what happens when a club overrates its list and perseveres too long with moderate players, and where we're headed if too many of the current under-25's don't make into good/very good AFL players.

 

[waiting]

Thanks for that LeeToRainesToRoach !

By my calculations the average turnover is 25.75 over all of the clubs.

So going by that we have culled above the average, but its the type of player(s) we have selected over list needs. This year was the first draft we looked at list needs, 3 drafts too late.

 

[Freezer]

I've tried to match players from both lists, giving 0 pts for the same player or those I consider to be roughly equal, 1 point for an upgrade and -1 point for a downgrade.

Obviously tough when some haven't played a game yet, so I've had to work on the 'potential' element.

An overall upgrade of about 8 spots in five years. Deary me. :-\

2004	2009	SCORE
Kyle Archibald	Polak, Graham	1
Justin Blumfield	Cousins, Ben	1
Joel Bowden	Bowden, Joel	0
Nathan Brown	Brown, Nathan	0
Wayne Campbell	Deledio, Brett	0
Mark Chaffey	Collins, Andrew	0
Mark Coughlan	Coughlan, Mark	0
Marc Dragicevic	Cotchin, Trent	1
Aaron Fiora	Connors, Daniel	1
Tim Fleming	King, Jake	0
Simon Fletcher	Putt, Dean	1
Nathan Foley	Foley, Nathan	0
Darren Gaspar	Thursfield, Will	-1
Alex Gilmour	JON	0
Ray Hall	Vickery, Tyrone	1
Brett Hartigan	Polo, Dean	1
Rory Hilton	Riewoldt, Jack	1
Adam Houlihan	Morton, Mitch	1
Chris Hyde	Thomson, Adam	0
Daniel Jackson	Jackson, Daniel	0
Kane Johnson	Johnson, Kane	0
Andrew Kellaway		0
Duncan Kellaway	McGuane, Luke	-1
Andrew Krakouer	Edwards, Shane	0
Ben Marsh	Pattison, Adam	1
Shane Morrison	Hughes, Cleve	0
Kelvin Moore	Moore, Kelvin	0
Chris Newman	Newman, Chris	0
Bill Nicholls	Hislop, Tom	0
Brad Ottens	Simmonds, Troy	-1
Kane Pettifer	Pettifer, Kayne	0
Andrew Raines	Raines, Andrew	0
Matthew Richardson	Richardson, Matthew	0
Thomas Roach	White, Matthew	1
David Rodan	Tambling, Richard	0
Matthew Rogers	Post, Jayden	1
Jay Schulz	Schulz, Jay	0
Greg Stafford	Graham, Angus	-1
Greg Tivendale	McMahon, Jordan	-1
Shane Tuck	Tuck, Shane	0
Luke Weller	Rance, Alex	1
Ty Zantuck		0______
		8

 

[Total Tiger]

Freezer, there's a couple of the 2004 players who you are marking on their whole careers rather than where they were at in 2004. I'm thinking of Dunc, Cambo and maybe even Gas. Definitely at the end of their careers and not near their best. McGuane and Lids I think are harshly marked against them. There's some pretty funny matches there though. I think Hartigan and Jake King would be a good neutral match. Lots of effort with no skills.

 

[Freezer]

Freezer, there's a couple of the 2004 players who you are marking on their whole careers rather than where they were at in 2004. I'm thinking of Dunc, Cambo and maybe even Gas. Definitely at the end of their careers and not near their best. McGuane and Lids I think are harshly marked against them. There's some pretty funny matches there though. I think Hartigan and Jake King would be a good neutral match. Lots of effort with no skills.

Yeah, I know, but I figured if I was gonna give credit to guys like Vickery and Post for what they might become, I had to respect what past players were at least capable of.

It was a very subjective exercise and players could've been matched against other players that would've produced different scores.

Ah well, it was theraputic for me!

 

[Tigerfan]

Great thread, very interesting. Thanks guys.

 

[Col.E.Kurtz]

I make the numbers as follows, excluding rookies (listed players in 2004, listed players in 2009, players listed in '09 who weren't listed in '04):

Cb 04 09 Di
-----------
Ad 38 40 28
Br 37 40 27
Ca 37 38 27
Co 39 40 30
Es 38 40 27
Fr 39 38 21
Ge 40 40 20
Ha 39 38 27
Me 38 40 28
NM 39 40 28
PA 39 40 25
Ri 39 40 29
St 37 39 22
Sy 38 40 23
WB 40 39 25
WC 39 40 25

Fremantle's low turnover is extraodinary considering its lack of success. It's what happens when a club overrates its list and perseveres too long with moderate players, and where we're headed if too many of the current under-25's don't make into good/very good AFL players.

Great set of stats their LTRTR.

So we've culled the 2nd most of any AFL club? You would haven't have a typical team sheet from 04 would you?


Btw Neil Craig is a phenomenal coach- has done a complete list rebuild while still making the finals every year

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

You would haven't have a typical team sheet from 04 would you?

22 players with the most games

2004 players Ma
----------------------
Hall, Ray 22
Hyde, Chris 22
Krakouer, Andrew J. 22
Tivendale, Greg 22
Bowden, Joel 21
Brown, Nathan G. 20
Chaffey, Mark 20
Campbell, Wayne 19
Gaspar, Darren 19
Hartigan, Brent 19
Johnson, Kane 19
Newman, Chris 19
Ottens, Brad 18
Richardson, Matthew 18
Fiora, Aaron 17
Fleming, Tim 17
Kellaway, Andrew 16
Rodan, David 16
Schulz, Jay 16
Zantuck, Ty 14
Stafford, Greg 11
Pettifer, Kayne 10

2008-09 players Ma
----------------------
Deledio, Brett 25
Moore, Kelvin W. 25
Newman, Chris 25
Simmonds, Troy 25
Tuck, Shane 25
Foley, Nathan 24
Tambling, Richard 24
McMahon, Jordan 23
Richardson, Matthew 23
White, Matt 23
Bowden, Joel 21
Brown, Nathan G. 21
Riewoldt, Jack 21
Schulz, Jay 21
Morton, Mitch 20
Edwards, Shane 19
McGuane, Luke 19
Thursfield, Will 19
Johnson, Kane 18
Pattison, Adam 18
King, Jake 16
Cotchin, Trent 15

 

[Rosy]

Thanks for the thread waiting.  I was wondering who from Danny's list was still around in Terry's time after watching On the Coach on Monday night.

I almost fell off my chair when Terry used Gas and Kella as examples of poor players he inherited.  He also mentioned our lack of skillful players now and questioned who he had to come in to replace them.  Your list indicates several players have been given extended contracts since Terry arrived, in fact Gas was even given a contract renewal in that period.    Time for Terry to stop passing the buck, and singling out players who had more heart that half the list we have now combined, and take some responsibility himself.  He's been there for 5 trade and draft periods now.

 

[The_General]

In his defence Rosy, I don't think he used the term poor players.

He was asked if he'd cut the list hard enough and fast enough. He said there were players he would have cut, but couldn't because they were contracted - like Gaspar and Kellaway. He mentioned players who didn't have good skills as a criteria (these guys did not have good skills). He then said, the question was, do you play them? He did play them, which is why we didn't bottom out. He probably shouldn't have.

The hypocritical thing was saying what have we got to replace people like Schulz and King with. Well, he should have got rid of them if they're crap, it's his list.

 

[Rosy]

In his defence Rosy, I don't think he used the term poor players.

He was asked if he'd cut the list hard enough and fast enough. He said there were players he would have cut, but couldn't because they were contracted - like Gaspar and Kellaway. He mentioned players who didn't have good skills as a criteria (these guys did not have good skills).

Maybe he didn't use the exact term "poor players" General but that was the gist.  Please substitute "poor skills" for what I said.  It makes no difference to my point.   Gas was singled out by Terry as an example of what he inherited, yet and his contract we extended during Terry's reign.  If he "would have cut him but couldn't" why did he keep him when he had the option?

Terry should be singling his own inefficiencies out rather than using specific players, or past coaches,  as scapegoats.  The question of why Darren's contract was extended needs to be asked in the context of Terry's comments about him.

 

[Djevv]

I think your analysis has missed a bit Freezer. You seem to forget that the same player maybe worth much more now than then and visa-versa (eg Moore). I tried to outline my changes in red but I am having problems with my reply screen. So changed the -1 to 0 on the Simmonds Ottens comparison too. Anyway I make it 13 'wins' which is a reasonable upgrade IMO. In fact if you look at the upgrades only there are 19 overall and only three downgrades based on a player v player comparison rather than a decline due to age/injury - so that has to get a tick. In terms of player development we have had 5 wins out of the 8 who might have been reasonably been expected to improve so not bad their either.

To me this highlights the fact that the list is really not an issue regarding what is going down at the club at the moment. Leadership on and off the field is the real problem.

2004	2009	SCORE
Kyle Archibald	Polak, Graham	1
Justin Blumfield	Cousins, Ben	1
Joel Bowden	Bowden, Joel	0
Nathan Brown	Brown, Nathan	-1
Wayne Campbell	Deledio, Brett	1
Mark Chaffey	Collins, Andrew	0
Mark Coughlan	Coughlan, Mark	-1
Marc Dragicevic	Cotchin, Trent	1
Aaron Fiora	Connors, Daniel	1
Tim Fleming	King, Jake	0
Simon Fletcher	Putt, Dean	1
Nathan Foley	Foley, Nathan	1
Darren Gaspar	Thursfield, Will	-1
Alex Gilmour	JON	0
Ray Hall	Vickery, Tyrone	1
Brett Hartigan	Polo, Dean	1
Rory Hilton	Riewoldt, Jack	1
Adam Houlihan	Morton, Mitch	1
Chris Hyde	Thomson, Adam	0
Daniel Jackson	Jackson, Daniel	1
Kane Johnson	Johnson, Kane	-1
Andrew Kellaway		0
Duncan Kellaway	McGuane, Luke	-1
Andrew Krakouer	Edwards, Shane	0
Ben Marsh	Pattison, Adam	1
Shane Morrison	Hughes, Cleve	0
Kelvin Moore	Moore, Kelvin	1
Chris Newman	Newman, Chris	0
Bill Nicholls	Hislop, Tom	0
Brad Ottens	Simmonds, Troy	0
Kane Pettifer	Pettifer, Kayne	0
Andrew Raines	Raines, Andrew	1
Matthew Richardson	Richardson, Matthew	0
Thomas Roach	White, Matthew	1
David Rodan	Tambling, Richard	0
Matthew Rogers	Post, Jayden	1
Jay Schulz	Schulz, Jay	0
Greg Stafford	Graham, Angus	-1
Greg Tivendale	McMahon, Jordan	0
Shane Tuck	Tuck, Shane	1
Luke Weller	Rance, Alex	1
Ty Zantuck		0______
		13

 

[Col.E.Kurtz]

22 players with the most games

2004 players Ma
----------------------
Hall, Ray 22
Hyde, Chris 22
Krakouer, Andrew J. 22
Tivendale, Greg 22
Bowden, Joel 21
Brown, Nathan G. 20
Chaffey, Mark 20
Campbell, Wayne 19
Gaspar, Darren 19
Hartigan, Brent 19
Johnson, Kane 19
Newman, Chris 19
Ottens, Brad 18
Richardson, Matthew 18
Fiora, Aaron 17
Fleming, Tim 17
Kellaway, Andrew 16
Rodan, David 16
Schulz, Jay 16
Zantuck, Ty 14
Stafford, Greg 11
Pettifer, Kayne 10

That’s phenomenal, of that list 2, perhaps 3 players are giving decent output in 2009. Of that list non are midfielders.

It actually does improve my opinion of Wallace somewhat, off a low base admittedly.

 

[The_General]

Yep, and on that Rosy I agree with you.

He didn't really want to do the hard yards and go for a bottom out. He was desperate to try get us into the finals as soon as he possibly could. This was always going to be unsustainable, as when players like Browny and Richo retired, we weren't going to have the quality for the new players to take over. We're already seeing that the forwardline now isn't going to be ready, as Reiwoldt hasn't taken that next step yet, and Schulz and Hughes are miles away.