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McGuane, White & Derrickx Get 1 Year Extensions

IrockZ said:
Think it was CC tiger. Can you link me the thread you are talking about Disco? Cheers.
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Sorry mate, meant to include that before but forgot.

http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=46633.msg1466392#msg1466392
 
Phantom said:
I believe there isn't one singular true way to play CHF, and that there are a variety of ways to play it; but the object is still the same, to be a marking target at or around HF.

There are two that I like to refer to: the mobile CHF, ala Royce Hart; and the physical CHF, ala David Cloke.

The king of the mobile CHFs in Richmond's history has to be Royce Hart.
Royce was about 6'2" in an era where the tall forwards were 6"4".
As a junior, Royce was spectacular in the air, taking speccies, and kicking goals with a long raking left foot.
However, when Royce arrived in the VFL (then AFL) and he was matched in height by opposition defenders, he soon learnt to expand his repetoire of play.
Royce quickly developed his physical and aerobic strength, which would allow him greater mobility and open space in which to take clean possession of the ball.
For Royce, it meant moving far and wide, up the ground, often to the wings, to get kicks.
For a CHF, it is not so important to kick goals yourself, although it is handy to snag regular goals. It is being able to be creative, take clean possession and to be able to set up goal opportunities for deeper forwards.

A modern example of the Royce Hart-type forward is O'Keefe of Sydney. He constantly runs, up and down between the wing and deep forward to take clean possession and set up opportunities for others, as well as "snagging" a few himself.

Other great mobile CHFs from other clubs included James Hird & Dermott Brereton.

Actually Brereton was one who adapted himself between being a mobile or a physical CHF depending on circumstances, and his own fitness.


The Richmond template of the modern physical CHF was David Cloke.
Cloke had a height and strength advantage over nearly all CHBs in the VFL, which he used to dominate a smaller area.
Cloke would set himself about 50m out at CHF and physically occupy the area. His physical, height & strength advantage would be used to engage in contested marking situations, where Cloke would fend off his CHB with one hand and take a chest mark with the other.
As Cloke lacked mobility, it was up to speedy midfielders and flankers to run past Cloke, looking for HRs to go on and score goals.
Cloke, too, used some mobility to effect, and looked to position himself to receive the ball so that he could kick the occasional goal on the run.

Since Cloke, it has been the nature of Richmond team structure to use the "Cloke" template. Over the last 30 years, from Barling, Stockdale, Summers, Gale, et al.

Other great physical CHFs from other clubs included Roger Merrett & Jonathan Brown.

Richardson was an example of a CHF that attempted a combination of CHF templates. Unfortunately, Richardson lacked the aspect of bringing others into the game, that a good CHF needs, and so played CHF more as a high FF.

I believe the problem today is that too many coaches believe that CHF is merely a high FF.
Our Reiwoldt is an example of someone who plays CHF as a high FF, and consequently hasn't succeeded in the role.
This is why many very good rebounding CHBs actually can be developed into effective CHFs, because they know how to take clean possession and set up play for others. Earl Spalding is a great example of a CHB, who was redeveloped into a premiership CHF.

When Brad Miller was recruited by Richmond to play CHF, I puzzled how he would play the mobile CHF, when he'd lost his mobility. When he eventually played for Richmond, it was clear that he wasn't playing the role as a true CHF, but as a high FF. He struggled for mobility and didn't have the height or strength advantage to play the physical CHF role effectively; and he struggled for distance with his kicking, so ended up not so high and often wandering into deep FF space.

Anyway, that's how I have seen the position of CHF played in my lifetime.
Vickery, with a height and mobility advantage, with physical development, looks our current best bet.
With Griffiths, his lack of physical endurance, at this point, appears to exclude him.
Astbury, prior to his knee injury, looked a very good CHF prospect, if his goal kicking became better. Now he has to overcome mobility issues.
But, it would be great to develop a truly mobile CHF.
I believe this is our immediate challenge.
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Such a detailed post on how to play CHF yet no mention of Wayne Carey? For mine, he's been the best CHF by quite some margin, played the strength game as well as anyone, was fantastic at ground level. brought players into the game. Apart from his off-field indiscretions, he was the perfect footballer.
 
Disco08 said:
Sorry mate, meant to include that before but forgot.

http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=46633.msg1466392#msg1466392
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Probably also meant to include Hislop, Collard, Cartledge and Howat in the list of failures as well but forgot.
Guess also Post and Browne can now go from success to failure as well.
Dunno about Collins (who you include as a success because he was traded for Grigg) now he's been delisted.
 
bullus_hit said:
Such a detailed post on how to play CHF yet no mention of Wayne Carey? For mine, he's been the best CHF by quite some margin, played the strength game as well as anyone, was fantastic at ground level. brought players into the game. Apart from his off-field indiscretions, he was the perfect footballer.
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Sorry, it's a personal thing but I was never a Carey fan.
All I remember of Carey was his constant bleating to the umpires, everytime he didn't get a free kick.
I still think to this day, that Arnold Briedis was a better North CHF.

I saw Briedis kick 7 behinds in a drawn GF once. He was still best man on the ground.
Briedis kicked 5 goals from CHF in each of North's first two premierships, against Peter Knights in '75 and Andrew Ireland in '77.
He constantly put himself into the contest, and brought his fellow team mates into the game.
Briedis didn't need a paddock.
He did it with his team mates around him.

In my opinion, Carey is North's most overrated CHF.
McKernan is probably their most underrated one.
Reckon the media made Carey bigger than he was.

But North put Carey at CHF in their Team of the Century and left Briedis out.
They clearly saw something that I didn't.
But, then again, they named Mal Blight in their 18, over Crosswell.
Crosswell rates in my top 10 premiership players of all time, whereas I never saw Blight play well in a BIG match, nearly always going missing.
And they named Pagan as TOC coach over Barassi.
Go figure!
 
Carey never really had anyone challenge him -

ended up his own worst enemy.


.. what a wonderfully lateral thread
 
Phantom said:
Sorry, it's a personal thing but I was never a Carey fan.
All I remember of Carey was his constant bleating to the umpires, everytime he didn't get a free kick.
I still think to this day, that Arnold Briedis was a better North CHF.

I saw Briedis kick 7 behinds in a drawn GF once. He was still best man on the ground.
Briedis kicked 5 goals from CHF in each of North's first two premierships, against Peter Knights in '75 and Andrew Ireland in '77.
He constantly put himself into the contest, and brought his fellow team mates into the game.
Briedis didn't need a paddock.
He did it with his team mates around him.

In my opinion, Carey is North's most overrated CHF.
McKernan is probably their most underrated one.
Reckon the media made Carey bigger than he was.

But North put Carey at CHF in their Team of the Century and left Briedis out.
They clearly saw something that I didn't.
But, then again, they named Mal Blight in their 18, over Crosswell.
Crosswell rates in my top 10 premiership players of all time, whereas I never saw Blight play well in a BIG match, nearly always going missing.
And they named Pagan as TOC coach over Barassi.
Go figure!
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Carey wasn't rude to you in a lift as well?
 
CarnTheTiges said:
It still hurts that we had the chance to get Selwood and used it on McMahon, but then the Dogs didn't do that well out of it either picking Ward.
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Actually the dogs have done very well out of it i must say, for starters Ward was a good player and the dogs were duly compensated by the AFL with pic 6 in this strong draft, so they are laughing CTT; Pic 6. Western Bulldogs (GWS compensation - Callan Ward)
 
RedanTiger said:
Probably also meant to include Hislop, Collard, Cartledge and Howat in the list of failures as well but forgot.
Guess also Post and Browne can now go from success to failure as well.
Dunno about Collins (who you include as a success because he was traded for Grigg) now he's been delisted.
Click to expand...

The top 4 were all recycled players and there's none of those on either list.

Yes changes wil occur in time to the lists but I didn't ask anyone to keep them updated.
 
Actually, I did see one element of Carey play that I thought was excellent.

It was at the start of the last quarter of the 1995 qualifying final.

Richmond weren't that far behind, going into the last quarter.
One of the North midfielders grubbed a kick out of the centre, which spilled along the ground towards a one-on-one contest between Carey and, I think, Wigney.
Carey knew that he couldn't gain clean possession, but saw that his flankers were in front running down the ground towards goal.
Rather than trying to pick up the ball, Carey paddled the ball out to the flank.
A North flanker picked up the ball, racing towards goal, and slotted it.
The game seemed over from that time.

I recall that he also had another excellent game in the 1996 GF against Sydney.
His 1998 GF was ok, except for the 1-4.
Although his 1999 premiership effort was ordinary, with McKernan taking the telling marks at CHF to win North the premiership.
 
Since 2006 the amount of players selected ofer pick 51 have been very hit and miss.

To judge Jackson on these picks is a mistake because getting a good player over pick 51 is an absolute raffle.

What is more obvious from the data is how important rookie picks are. And here the debate really begins over how RFC does in rookie selections.

From 2009 on I list the (debatable) successfull rookie promotions.

I have not listed the preseason drafts here.

2006 31 players

Will Schofield
Lindsay Thomas
Robbie Gray
Daniel Connors
Jarryd Allen
Josh Hill
Tyson Goldsack
Justin Westhoff
Jesse White

2007 20 Players
Bradd Dalziell
Kyle Cheney
Cale Hooker
Taylor Walker (NSW SP)

2008 29 Players
Jordan Lisle
Neville Jetta
Michael Walters
Jarrad Redden
Shane Savage

2009 42 Players
Troy Taylor
Trent Dennis-Lane
Ben Sinclair
Jeromey Webberley
Ben Nason
Bryce Retzlaff

Promoted Rookies (heaps this year)
Jeremy Laidler
Matthew Suckling
Sam Jacobs
Greg Broughton
Aaron Joseph
Liam Picken
 
RedanTiger said:
Probably also meant to include Hislop, Collard, Cartledge and Howat in the list of failures as well but forgot.
Guess also Post and Browne can now go from success to failure as well.
Dunno about Collins (who you include as a success because he was traded for Grigg) now he's been delisted.
Click to expand...

Reden I am left wondering if you and some of Francis' critics have given much thought the the mechanics of how the recruiters make their decision. Obviously taking some license with the figures for the sake of argument, but lets just say that the juniors play 22 games in the year of their draft. Apart from the championships, all of these matches will be on the weekend, most of them significant distances apart. If he was really lucky Francis would be able of catch 2 matches a weekend, plus the champs and a few other random matches. Maybe he gets lucky if it's the Chargers v Stingrays, but often there may only be a couple of players in each match worth watching.

The late picks you are talking about may be spread even more far and wide, as anybody that makes it through to Vic Metro, Country, S.A., W.A. or the lower pool matches will all have exposed form for all to see, no surprises there. So we are talking state league games or other leagues where you may find the odd smokey. In actual fact we are talking hundreds of matches and thousands of footballers spread over the entire country, and poor old Francis has to try and lay eyes on them all, not just once but on several occasions, in order to make an educated guess as to which ones will kick on.

It's a massive undertaking. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a good deal of the late picks you are talking about would be from matches that are delegated to other recruiters within the team. Let's be honest, you want your head recruiter watching the best kids and really nailing the first 2 to 3 rounds of the draft. The picks after that you are relying on your network interstate and perhaps many part time and less experienced talent spotters seeing a player nobody else has spotted that has some talent and potential. Although the buck stops with Francis, you may be directing your critique at the wrong guy. Perhaps we don't have the necessary numbers or quality amongst the wider recruiting team to get some of these late picks right?
 
linuscambridge said:
Reden I am left wondering if you and some of Francis' critics have given much thought the the mechanics of how the recruiters make their decision. Obviously taking some license with the figures for the sake of argument, but lets just say that the juniors play 22 games in the year of their draft. Apart from the championships, all of these matches will be on the weekend, most of them significant distances apart. If he was really lucky Francis would be able of catch 2 matches a weekend, plus the champs and a few other random matches. Maybe he gets lucky if it's the Chargers v Stingrays, but often there may only be a couple of players in each match worth watching.

The late picks you are talking about may be spread even more far and wide, as anybody that makes it through to Vic Metro, Country, S.A., W.A. or the lower pool matches will all have exposed form for all to see, no surprises there. So we are talking state league games or other leagues where you may find the odd smokey. In actual fact we are talking hundreds of matches and thousands of footballers spread over the entire country, and poor old Francis has to try and lay eyes on them all, not just once but on several occasions, in order to make an educated guess as to which ones will kick on.

It's a massive undertaking. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a good deal of the late picks you are talking about would be from matches that are delegated to other recruiters within the team. Let's be honest, you want your head recruiter watching the best kids and really nailing the first 2 to 3 rounds of the draft. The picks after that you are relying on your network interstate and perhaps many part time and less experienced talent spotters seeing a player nobody else has spotted that has some talent and potential. Although the buck stops with Francis, you may be directing your critique at the wrong guy. Perhaps we don't have the necessary numbers or quality amongst the wider recruiting team to get some of these late picks right?
Click to expand...

Unlike yourself, I take note of what the people involved actually say themselves.
Here is the link to a Roar Vision interview from April 2011 where Richo speaks to Francis Jackson.
http://bigpondvideo.com/AFL/349723
At 2:00 FJ talks about the amount of games they view. He gives the examples of his two main recruiters watching eight games each and himself watching five over a single weekend.

You also seem to have a very vague idea of how many recruiting resources the club uses.
Here is the link to a recent Talking Tigers podcast where Jackson is interviewed.
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6301/newsid/149789/default.aspx#embedvideoplayer
We have 3 full-time recruiters plus 2 part-time recruiters in each of SA, WA and Vic. Work is also done in PNG and USA.
Towards the finish FJ also says that 40 game videos per week are delivered to the club.
So the club can spread our resources far and wide, view players and build a strong database on each draftee.
 
RedanTiger said:
Unlike yourself, I take note of what the people involved actually say themselves.
Click to expand...

Nice response. I will get to those links in time and give them due consideration. In the meantime here is a good link for you to have a look at;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0671027034
 
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