Midfield Depth | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Midfield Depth

Scoop

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Dec 8, 2004
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/waxing-duo-has-pies-shining/story-e6frf9jf-1225914543956

Great article by Robbo on midfield depth and smarts around the ball.

Shows how far we have to go in this area.
 
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Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
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Sorry, split this out Scoop because I thought it might make for a good discussion especially given our rising midfield.

How far off do you think we are from reaching this sort of standard? I reckon Cotchin and Martin aren't far off being our version of Swan and Pendlebury - maybe 2 years. Deledio rejoining the midfield could push it a long quite quickly.

Swan - Martin
Pendlebury - Cotchin
Ball - Foley
Thomas - Deledio
Didak - Morton
Johnson - Edwards
Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams, Macaffer - Collins, Webberley, Contin, draftees.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
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Yeah, we probably need to draft a couple more A or B+ grade midfielders to compete with the top sides 2 - 3 years from now.

Where Collingwood also have it over us by a fair distance is strong over the ball mature bodied backs: O'Brien, Shaw, Presti, Maxwell and to a lesser degree Toovey.

Our 'strongest' backmen is probably Newman. Says it all really.
 

Disco08

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Sep 23, 2003
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I reckon it's their midfield making their defense look good to some extent. None of those guys are A graders IMO.

If only Hislop could become the inside ball winning machine he was as an 18 year old playing VFL. He could release Cotchin who in turn could be extremely damaging in a slightly more outside role.
 

lukeanddad

Tiger Champion
Nov 17, 2008
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Disco08 said:
I reckon it's their midfield making their defense look good to some extent. None of those guys are A graders IMO.

Harry is A-Grade, and as much as I dislike him, Maxwell is close.

As for the mids, I am comfortable with your comparison. Titch with more muscle will be close to elite.

You have probably deliberately left out Jacko. While he is low on awareness/class, his strength more than makes up for it. So, I;d swap him for Foley as the Ball-like player on our list.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
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Disco08 said:
I reckon it's their midfield making their defense look good to some extent. None of those guys are A graders IMO.
None of them are stars but one on one you rarely see them beaten. And they almost never lose their feet. Cruical in finals in particular.

Compare that to Moore, *smile*, Thursty etc who seem to get out hussled or lose their feet numerous times a game.

If only Hislop could become the inside ball winning machine he was as an 18 year old playing VFL. He could release Cotchin who in turn could be extremely damaging in a slightly more outside role.
Yeah, ah well, it was probably dodgy groins that stuffed him. Slow and can't kick these days. Getting Foley back will help a lot. If Jacko could improve his decision making and disposal he could make a real difference too. We live in hope.

I still say we should get Pendelbury and Selwood. ;D
 

Disco08

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Sep 23, 2003
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Sorry, yeah forgot about Jacko. I reckon he's a good chance to improve his deficiencies with more quality surrounding him. If the decisions are more obvious he's more likely to make the right ones.

evo said:
None of them are stars but one on one you rarely see them beaten. And they almost never lose their feet. Cruical in finals in particular.

Compare that to Moore, *smile*, Thursty etc who seem to get out hussled or lose their feet numerous times a game.

Yeah, we're really reliant on at least a couple of Astbury, Grimes, Gourdis and Rance making the grade.
 

keepa lids onit

Medal number 1, 2 & 3
May 13, 2005
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Disco08 said:
Sorry, split this out Scoop because I thought it might make for a good discussion especially given our rising midfield.

How far off do you think we are from reaching this sort of standard? I reckon Cotchin and Martin aren't far off being our version of Swan and Pendlebury - maybe 2 years. Deledio rejoining the midfield could push it a long quite quickly.

Swan - Martin
Pendlebury - Cotchin
Ball - Foley
Thomas - Deledio
Didak - Morton
Johnson - Edwards
Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams, Macaffer - Collins, Webberley, Contin, draftees.
good thread. we look pretty good when compared player for player

martin in a couple of years could/should be as good as swan.
cotchin is nearly as good as pendles. good pre-season and i redkon hes there next year
ball foley. id say foley is better
deledio over thomas
dids over morton
johnson edwards ehh come out about level.

reckon we need 1 more good quality mid with our first pick this year and our midfield is set!!

our defence, now theres the real problem, esp key backs!!!
 

Leysy Days

Tiger Legend
Feb 26, 2004
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Midfielders. Massive area we need to keep adding to. Still a long way short of where we need to be numbers wise in this area.

Disco08 said:
If only Hislop could become the inside ball winning machine he was as an 18 year old playing VFL. He could release Cotchin who in turn could be extremely damaging in a slightly more outside role.

Give up on Sloppy Disco. Not going to make it. Certainly as a midfielder, & unlikely anywhere unfortunately.

Disco08 said:
Yeah, we're really reliant on at least a couple of Astbury, Grimes, Gourdis and Rance making the grade.

Not so the latter two. But Astbury & Grimes have excellent potential to fill the key roles down back for us ILO. You were keen on Grimes last year from memory. Good pluck. Liked him more & more every time leysy has seen him this year.
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
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I can't give up on him til he's gone Leysy. I've never seen a kid firing handballs out of heavy traffic to really attacking spots like he did in the VFL that year. He probably won't be there much longer though so I'll be out of my misery soon.

Disagree that we're heaps short of having the numbers for a potent midfield. Adding another quality mid with pick 6 I think there's enough depth and quality to start rivaling the better brigades with another year or two of development.
 

Smoking Aces

Batten Down The Hatches
Sep 21, 2007
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Disco08 said:
Sorry, split this out Scoop because I thought it might make for a good discussion especially given our rising midfield.

How far off do you think we are from reaching this sort of standard? I reckon Cotchin and Martin aren't far off being our version of Swan and Pendlebury - maybe 2 years. Deledio rejoining the midfield could push it a long quite quickly.

Swan - Martin
Pendlebury - Cotchin
Ball - Foley
Thomas - Deledio
Didak - Morton
Johnson - Edwards
Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams, Macaffer - Collins, Webberley, Contin, draftees.
You forgot Jolly who plays a vital part of their midfield dominance. Graham and co are no where near in the same class as Jolly. The only one who could become as dominant as Jolly in the years to come is Vickery.

I believe rucks should be one of our main priorities in the draft/trade table.
 

Scoop

Tiger Legend
Dec 8, 2004
21,638
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Disco08 said:
Sorry, split this out Scoop because I thought it might make for a good discussion especially given our rising midfield.

How far off do you think we are from reaching this sort of standard? I reckon Cotchin and Martin aren't far off being our version of Swan and Pendlebury - maybe 2 years. Deledio rejoining the midfield could push it a long quite quickly.

Swan - Martin
Pendlebury - Cotchin
Ball - Foley
Thomas - Deledio
Didak - Morton
Johnson - Edwards
Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams, Macaffer - Collins, Webberley, Contin, draftees.

No worries, good split.

Reckon we are miles off it. Deledio is set as a back flanker. He is slaying it there and I don't see him moving back. The Goddard mould is perfect for him and the role of a trouble shooter is fine for him. Foley is a question mark too come back. Cannot bank on him, he may make it back to his best but no sure thing.
Morton looks a long term wingman but he has to prove it. The biggest dropoff is the Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams group. They all look like being long term well rounded footballers. Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham are on the verge of being A grade. We have no one pushing into that bracket.

We need another 5-6 rolling through. And not Tuck, Jackson types. Well rounded types who can play inside and outside. We have nothing.

Martin, Cotchin are fair calls. They will be our rolls royces but at the moment they are driving with 1992 Ford Falcons.
 

Leysy Days

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Feb 26, 2004
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Agree Scoop. The comparison with Collingwood shows how much quality we still need to come through in this area.

Sidebottom, Beams & Wellingham are outstanding talents that are bankable 10 year quality players.

Need to keep rolling through those types in the draft until we get the numbers up of high-end quality in that regard.
 

johnson2richo2003

"Players stop improving is the day i leave."
Dec 19, 2002
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Why are we comparing with Collingwood?
You can plan your game down to a tee when you know your getting 18 games at the same ground each year.
A fairer comparison would be with the side who has the BEST midfeild in the Comp..Geelong
 

Punxsutawney Phil

Its Groundhog Day- same sh!t, different year
Apr 2, 2007
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SCOOP said:
No worries, good split.

Reckon we are miles off it. Deledio is set as a back flanker. He is slaying it there and I don't see him moving back. The Goddard mould is perfect for him and the role of a trouble shooter is fine for him. Foley is a question mark too come back. Cannot bank on him, he may make it back to his best but no sure thing.
Morton looks a long term wingman but he has to prove it. The biggest dropoff is the Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams group. They all look like being long term well rounded footballers. Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham are on the verge of being A grade. We have no one pushing into that bracket.

We need another 5-6 rolling through. And not Tuck, Jackson types. Well rounded types who can play inside and outside. We have nothing.

Martin, Cotchin are fair calls. They will be our rolls royces but at the moment they are driving with 1992 Ford Falcons.

Agree with all of this.

Collingwood have 2 midfields, we have one. Need another 4 quality blokes who can play midfield before we can compete in this area. Part of the reason they have towelled us up the last 2 times we have played them.
 

Tigers of Old

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Jul 26, 2004
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SCOOP said:
The biggest dropoff is the Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams group. They all look like being long term well rounded footballers. Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham are on the verge of being A grade. We have no one pushing into that bracket..
Agree entirely.
It's the Pies second tier that has them pushing for a flag. Talented runners everywhere that they can throw into the midfield.
Crucially if one of their guns get hurt as you fully expect over the course of a season, they have strong onballer coverage.
 

Col.E.Kurtz

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Apr 4, 2005
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I found this comment interesting about Pendlebury and Swan, the implication is that it take 3-4 seasons together to build up serious chemistry in the midfield. We are a few years off that.

“"We've now played that 80, 90, 100 games together, we know our running patterns, we hear each other's voices, and we try to look after each other as much as possible because we know if someone is being tagged we have to help them and get them into space.”
 

Disco08

Tiger Legend
Sep 23, 2003
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SCOOP said:
No worries, good split.

Reckon we are miles off it. Deledio is set as a back flanker. He is slaying it there and I don't see him moving back. The Goddard mould is perfect for him and the role of a trouble shooter is fine for him. Foley is a question mark too come back. Cannot bank on him, he may make it back to his best but no sure thing.
Morton looks a long term wingman but he has to prove it. The biggest dropoff is the Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Beams group. They all look like being long term well rounded footballers. Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham are on the verge of being A grade. We have no one pushing into that bracket.

We need another 5-6 rolling through. And not Tuck, Jackson types. Well rounded types who can play inside and outside. We have nothing.

That group are all quite young still though, so with the development still required in the group we already have we can hopefully find players to fill these spots in the next draft or two.

Given Cotchin is a couple of years younger than Pendlebury I reckon that's roughly how far behind them we are in development.

CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:
Why are we comparing with Collingwood?
You can plan your game down to a tee when you know your getting 18 games at the same ground each year.
A fairer comparison would be with the side who has the BEST midfeild in the Comp..Geelong

Collingwood's midfield is far closer in age and development to ours. All Geelong's stars aside from Selwood were drafted a long time ago.

Also:

Swan - 75.8, Pendlebury - 65.8, Didak - 60.2, Thomas - 55.8, Ball - 50.1, Wellingham - 47.2, Blair 46.8, Beams - 46.7, Sidebottom - 46.1, Johnson - 45.2 & Macaffer - 40 gives a combined value for their top 11 midfielders of 579.7

Ablett - 77.3, Chapman 68.2, Selwood - 65, Bartel - 61.5, Kelly - 57.2, Corey - 50.5, Ling - 42.1, Stokes - 41.4, Duncan - 41.4, Wojcinski - 39.9 & Hogan - 29.2 - gives a lower combined value of 573.7 and relies very much on it's top tier for that rating.

Given the thread title is "Midfield Depth", I think Collingwood are the appropriate comparison to be making.
 

French Tiger

Tiger Champion
Oct 6, 2004
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What would it take to get Mundy ? Prob our 1st pick.Would we be int ? We were keen a couple of yrs ago,he has had a great yr but would prob cost to much & at 25 ish is borderline to the age bracket we are after.Should we try ?
 

Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
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which is why deledio must play midfield. people speak of goddard and hodge as comparisons but these 2 are more effective in the midfield.

chimp, foley, martin, deledio, edwards, morton. perhaps connors. something to work with. other possibles - webberley, nason, contin, hicks, need to add to it though. Atley/Gaff/Caddy this year and a few others with later picks. keep recruiting talent and invest in development. it can turn quicker than you think if you do it right.