Midfield Depth

[KnightersRevenge]

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Collingwood's midfield is a pack of second to the ball, first to the tackle lurkers and spillage sweepers. Loose ball gets are contested possessions - Swan gets lots of loose ball. Good player gets it, Collingwood Lurker A tackles him, ball spills to Lurker B who handballs to Lurker C who gets credited with a clearance.

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It will be a victory for football if it can.

IMO Collingwood's strength is not it's class, but it's sheer numbers and agression at the contest. It is in fact very Geelong-esque of a couple of years ago but without that real quality of Ablett, Bartel etc. Their midfield runs in over-lapping waves from behind the contest really swamping the ball until they force the turnover. Then Swan/Pendlebury/ "insert over-rated Pie here" mop up. The coup is Mick's ability to pull it off, not drafting or skills.

 

[Michael]

This might be more appropriate

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation

I'll match your wilde with a favourite Coward:

It's discouraging to think how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit.

 

[josey]

Nice work folks,

I particularly enjoyed this rebuttle,

So in other words, a gun. Just like Swan and Didak.

Oh... Johnny, I apologize, I forgot you were there... You may go now.

:hihi

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

That ordinary Collingwood midfield are having a picnic tonight.

 

[Barnzy]

That ordinary Collingwood midfield are having a picnic tonight.

Bunch of lurkers are killing one of the best midfields of all time. Some people just have no idea. :hihi

 

[Big Cat Lover]

You are batting out of your league, pal ... so far out of your league.

Collingwood's midfield is a pack of second to the ball, first to the tackle lurkers and spillage sweepers. Loose ball gets are contested possessions - Swan gets lots of loose ball. Good player gets it, Collingwood Lurker A tackles him, ball spills to Lurker B who handballs to Lurker C who gets credited with a clearance.

Speaking of midfield depth, the run of Varcoe and Wojo was massive tonight. Good changes. Corey can do Mackie's job better than him and dare I say it, Lonergan is important. Tomahawk doesn't have to do much to be more effective than Blake, and he succeeded in that. If Ottens can play as much time as Jolly the Cats will be happy. I hope they smash the Social Climbers, the question is if their handball and risk taking can stand up to the lurking. It will be a victory for football if it can.

Thought this deserved a highlight after tonights game. Reckon the harder, tougher, better football side won tonight playing "football" instead of handball.
Swan - 13 Cont Possesions/Pendlebury - 9 CP/Wellingham - 10 CP - pretty good inside stuff for lurkers
Lonregan & Tomahawk - LOL
Stick to quoting Spook, you're batting out of your league when it come to football

 

[spook]

Here's one especially for you and Barnzy pal:

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.


I knew this would be brought up but Collingwood smashed Geelong by tackling them into submission. By definition you have to be second to the ball to tackle. There were times I even noticed a Collingwood player wait for his opponent to take possession so he could tackle him. Once again, loose ball gets count as contested possessions. Tackles spill the ball loose.

I agree re the 'football' v 'handball' stuff. Collingwood was clearly superior tonight, through numbers, pressure and run. And Geelong was weak. Doesn't mean I have to like the way Collingwood plays. Their first concern is the tackle. Got any 'first possession' stats there mate? Tipping they'd be a lot more even than the scoreboard. I wouldn't even be surprised if Geelong was in front. Last time Collingwood beat Geelong the Cats still clearly won the first possession count. So either Collingwood is beaten to the ball more often than not or its players allow their opponents to get it so they can tackle them.

As for whose league I'm batting out of, are you referring to yours or Barnzy's?

 

[Harry]

never seen a team get so many numbers around the contest so often.

 

[Barnzy]

Here's one especially for you and Barnzy pal:

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.


I knew this would be brought up but Collingwood smashed Geelong by tackling them into submission. By definition you have to be second to the ball to tackle. There were times I even noticed a Collingwood player wait for his opponent to take possession so he could tackle him. Once again, loose ball gets count as contested possessions. Tackles spill the ball loose.

I agree re the 'football' v 'handball' stuff. Collingwood was clearly superior tonight, through numbers, pressure and run. And Geelong was weak. Doesn't mean I have to like the way Collingwood plays. Their first concern is the tackle. Got any 'first possession' stats there mate? Tipping they'd be a lot more even than the scoreboard. I wouldn't even be surprised if Geelong was in front. Last time Collingwood beat Geelong the Cats still clearly won the first possession count. So either Collingwood is beaten to the ball more often than not or its players allow their opponents to get it so they can tackle them.

As for whose league I'm batting out of, are you referring to yours or Barnzy's?

The point is not how they play, but how much of an idiot you have made yourself look by insinuating that they don't have a good midfield rather a bunch of lurkers. I posted Swan, Pendlebury, etc are guns and their midfield is very good and you said I'm out my league. Who's out of their league really?

 

[Tigers of Old]

never seen a team get so many numbers around the contest so often.

Agree Harry. As Daisy said they must be supremely fit.
Made a very skilful Cats side look like they were running in mud.
The Pies pressure was relentless due to their workrate.

 

[Disco08]

I agree re the 'football' v 'handball' stuff. Collingwood was clearly superior tonight, through numbers, pressure and run. And Geelong was weak. Doesn't mean I have to like the way Collingwood plays. Their first concern is the tackle. Got any 'first possession' stats there mate? Tipping they'd be a lot more even than the scoreboard. I wouldn't even be surprised if Geelong was in front. Last time Collingwood beat Geelong the Cats still clearly won the first possession count. So either Collingwood is beaten to the ball more often than not or its players allow their opponents to get it so they can tackle them.

Good analysis spook. 47-32 Geelong's way.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Good analysis spook. 47-32 Geelong's way.

There was a good article that supported spook on the AFL website - maybe more to him than just cut and paste?

Dane Swan & Pendlebury match up pretty well in the 1st possession stakes though


By Mark Macgugan

THE CATS of the modern era are known for playing fast, free-wheeling footy. Their games generally feature less stoppages than the average.

But the numbers suggest that Geelong may be better served by clogging things up against the Pies on Friday night.

Champion Data breaks scoring down to three sources: scores from turnovers, scores from stoppages and scores from kick-ins.

Only six per cent of scores originate from kick-ins, making the other two figures the crucial ones.

Collingwood leads the league in scores from turnovers, having notched 692 more points than their opposition from that source this season. There’s no team better at applying pressure on the ball-carrier, forcing a mistake, and then capitalising.

The Cats rank second in this area with a differential of +464; also impressive, but a sizeable 228 points behind their preliminary final opponent.

However, when it comes to scores from stoppages, the Cats still reign.

A score from a stoppage is recorded when a team takes first possession and moves the ball in an unbroken chain to score.

The 2009 premiers have scored 349 points more than their opposition from stoppages this year, 182 points better than the second-ranked team. They convert a first possession at a stoppage into a score 25.3 per cent of the time - nearly five per cent better than the league average.

The Cats’ swag of on-ball stars are masters of getting first hands on the ball and using it well enough to set up a run to goal. Not surprisingly, Gary Ablett is the main go-to man:

Player First possessions Team points scored from first possessions
Gary Ablett 134 152
James Kelly 87 99
Jimmy Bartel 84 97
Joel Selwood 134 95
Paul Chapman 66 71


Collingwood rank third in scores from stoppages, with a differential of +132. That’s good, but a long way behind the Cats.

The minor premier has three genuine stars when it comes to gaining first possession and setting up scoring opportunities, and then the numbers drop away sharply:

Player First possessions Team points scored from first possessions
Dane Swan 140 112
Luke Ball 108 106
Scott Pendlebury 114 95
Dayne Beams 64 65
Dale Thomas 37 47


So should Geelong coach Mark Thompson tell his players to continue the open, run-and-carry game that has served them so well, and risk serious scoreboard damage if they turn the ball over?

Or is he better off pushing numbers around the ball to force stoppages and back his team to convert from there?

 

[spook]

The point is not how they play, but how much of an idiot you have made yourself look by insinuating that they don't have a good midfield rather a bunch of lurkers. I posted Swan, Pendlebury, etc are guns and their midfield is very good and you said I'm out my league. Who's out of their league really?

Barnzy, I apologise. I should have been clearer. My comment that you were out of your league was strictly to do with you taking Dyer'ere to task. It is fair to say Big Jack has forgotten more about football than you are ever likely to know. However you are clearly young, so there is hope if you listen, learn and look for more than the obvious. Please do.

As to what my point was, let me tell you that it entirely concerned how Collingwood plays, and was no comment at all on the quality of individuals. The only comment I made regarding quality was pretty complimentary towards Pendlebury, to which you responded that meant he is a gun. Well of course he is a gun, any eight-year-old can tell you that. I was aiming for a slightly deeper level of analysis.

Good analysis spook. 47-32 Geelong's way.

Cheers for that Disco. They won the clearances too. I stand vindicated.

There was a good article that supported spook on the AFL website - maybe more to him than just cut and paste?

Illusion is the first of all pleasures.

But the numbers suggest that Geelong may be better served by clogging things up against the Pies on Friday night.
...
However, when it comes to scores from stoppages, the Cats still reign.

...
The Cats’ swag of on-ball stars are masters of getting first hands on the ball and using it well enough to set up a run to goal. Not surprisingly, Gary Ablett is the main go-to man:

...
So should Geelong coach Mark Thompson tell his players to continue the open, run-and-carry game that has served them so well, and risk serious scoreboard damage if they turn the ball over?

Or is he better off pushing numbers around the ball to force stoppages and back his team to convert from there?

That's what I was hoping Geelong would do but as soon as Ablett won the first possession, handballed to a teammate (I forget who), who flipped the hot potato to Johnson, who dropped it, allowing Collingwood to whisk the ball inside 50, I knew it was all over. Geelong refused, or was unable, to change the way it played, to take the tackle or boot the ball forward rather than continue with its Harlem Globetrotters style that has always been susceptible to immense pressure. Credit to Collingwood, they apply more pressure to the bloke with the ball than any team I've ever seen and they have some serious hurt factor on the turnover.

The point I was making by calling them lurkers was that focus on the tackle. Coaches have convinced the league to 'reward the tackle' at the expense of the bloke who actually goes in and gets the ball. I'm agin' it. That and I hate Collingwood, so anything I say about them will carry an added edge.

Big Cat, apologies for lumping you in with Barnzy. Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace.

;D

 

[Big Cat Lover]

The point I was making by calling them lurkers was that focus on the tackle. Coaches have convinced the league to 'reward the tackle' at the expense of the bloke who actually goes in and gets the ball. I'm agin' it. That and I hate Collingwood, so anything I say about them will carry an added edge.

Now here is something I totally agree with - it's despicable the way the player desires the ball most is often at a disadvantage. Too often he is given little flexibility from the umpire/"rules committee". Too often the theatrical flapping of the arms by the umpire follows a desperate attempt to win the ball.

The real question now spook is how do you defeat these hoodlum lurkers?
thougts on this -
1. Less handball more kicking - esp no handball to stationery targets. Fowards need to play in front, no playing for the cheapie over the top. It suits Reiwoldt but he needs to be careful not to get sucked to far outside the F50. They need another leadup target - maybe a smokey in Fisher?
2. Be prepared to take a risk - run to support will be vital - (unfortunately this is where the pies "healthier" list and superior fitness may prevail) - Peake/Gram/Ray/Gilbert/Fisher/Goddard all need to be on their bikes.

 

[spook]

Spot on Cat. Riewoldt is the most important man on the ground come Saturday. Good news is he's kicked five goals in each of the two finals he's played against the scum. Kosi will need to earn his keep and stop knocking his captain out. If he can play the role required of him a flag could be the payoff for a decade of frustration.

Fisher is an interesting suggestion as they do need to make Maxwell accountable, but surely they need him down back. Gardiner will push forward but so will Jolly. The kid McEvoy can play - big responsibility on him to give the Saints the advantage when Leigh Brown rucks. Great head on his shoulders so hopefully won't be overawed. I like the way he settled and goaled last night.

As for beating the lurking, St Kilda will definitely be prepared to take the tackle and set up for another stoppage. They love that stuff. Their game will be harder for Collingwood to counter. Saints will keep possession as much as possible, mainly by kicking - backwards, sideways, back to the bloke who just kicked it, whatever it takes. That, the focus on stoppages, and as you say, run-and-carry, taking a risk and lead-up to the ball, is how they can win. They'd want Gram to be fit too - he's crucial. Warriors like Hayes and Riewoldt will refuse to lose. If they can keep it a low-scoring slug and frustrate the Pies they just might do it. I bloody well hope so, otherwise we'll all have to leave town.

 

[Barnzy]

Barnzy, I apologise. I should have been clearer. My comment that you were out of your league was strictly to do with you taking Dyer'ere to task. It is fair to say Big Jack has forgotten more about football than you are ever likely to know. However you are clearly young, so there is hope if you listen, learn and look for more than the obvious. Please do.

As to what my point was, let me tell you that it entirely concerned how Collingwood plays, and was no comment at all on the quality of individuals.

Please, now you're just trying to back away from your post after trying to be smart and failing.

My original post:

Pendlebury is a gun. Top 10 in the AFL maybe. Would be our best midfielder too.


Swan is 2nd in the AFL for contested possessions behind Ablett and 5th in the AFL for clearances. How's he just an outside mid?

Collingwood's midfield is very good. Silly talk.

Your reply:

You are batting out of your league, pal ... so far out of your league.

Collingwood's midfield is a pack of second to the ball, first to the tackle lurkers and spillage sweepers. Loose ball gets are contested possessions - Swan gets lots of loose ball. Good player gets it, Collingwood Lurker A tackles him, ball spills to Lurker B who handballs to Lurker C who gets credited with a clearance.

"Good player gets it, Collingwood Lurker A tackles him, balls spills to Lurker B, Lurker C gets credited with clearance, bla bla". Don't try to say you weren't trying to talk down their midfield which was a direct reply to me pumping up the quality of their midfield saying it's very good. You posted something silly telling me I'm out of my league, just stop trying to back out of it as you're making it sound even worse. Digging yourself a bigger hole.

 

[spook]

:duh

 

[Gunsmoke]

I strongly believe that the saints should throw Goddard onto Maxwell in the first quarter. Could kick a few early and will play havoc with their structure.

 

[spook]

I strongly believe that the saints should throw Goddard onto Maxwell in the first quarter. Could kick a few early and will play havoc with their structure.

I like it.

 

[Dyer'ere]

There's no doubt in my mind that the Pies destroyed Geelong with superior numbers, tactics, endeavour and pressure on Friday night. And I agree with Harry that their numbers and formations around the ball were historically awesome. And sure Malthouse looked like a genius and Dumber Thompson looked a lot like he usually does except dumber.

But there is no way I could put the Magpie win down simply to a dominant brand. It was a matter of personnel. The only lingering doubt about the Pies after such a massacre is whether the Cats were just awful.

But we'll get an insight into that next week.

:duh

;D

It was reminiscent of the Hawthorn GF except worse, eh, spook? The Cats won a bunch of inside ball and were picked off by waves of diligent opponents who forced tunrovers due to Geelong's over use. It's certainly a game I'd watch again. I wonder if Dumber would change anything.