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MRP

HR

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Mar 20, 2013
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Pretty fair call for me. Would think these were only 2 incidents out of a few more that could have been highlighted in the weekends games, still think the umps have control and could stamp this out today by using their whistle. But anyhow, oh how we love the drama.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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Going on MRO form, I'm surprised Selwood wasn't sent straight to the tribunal,


Im surprised they didnt throw him a party with fairy bread and cheezels,

and show him through his new office
 
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cagedtiger

Be Feared
Nov 19, 2004
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I don't know if it is just me. I look at Selwood a solid mid tier footballer. My view is he would look ordinary at like a Nth Melbourne. Not an impact player., needs great players around him to look the goods. That is why he goes the over acting as he needs the free kicks to get his stats up. Slow paced and average awareness. Not a great at all.
 

CarnTheTiges

This is a REAL tiger
Mar 8, 2004
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The only person I’ve seen call Selwood’s actions out for what they were and at the same time give the spineless MRO a slap is Titus O’Reilly.
 
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seven

Super Tiger
Apr 20, 2004
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"I just have complete faith in him as a person".

Joel Selwood told Chris Scott that he didn't mean to step on Taylor Duryea's leg, and the Cats coach believes him.

Scott believes!
Case close
 

Legends of 2017

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!
Mar 24, 2005
6,727
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"I just have complete faith in him as a person".

Joel Selwood told Chris Scott that he didn't mean to step on Taylor Duryea's leg, and the Cats coach believes him.

Scott believes!
Case close
Did I hear Scott correctly? Did he say that duckwood say that only that one was an accident? Does that mean the other incident was deliberate? And he only got fined for that dirty act :mad:
 

MD Jazz

Don't understand football? Talk to the hand.
Feb 3, 2017
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Sounds like the defence of Gary Abblett Jnr when he kept elbowing blokes in the head every week.
 
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MD Jazz

Don't understand football? Talk to the hand.
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I'm not surprised. You're nothing if not consistent. :p

This is the problem when you try and compare incidents and outcomes but, in any event, I can't take seriously the idea Clark would have been as aware of impending contact as Shiel was. That's just not plausible. Clark has his eyes on the ball. Mackay is at least 20 metres away as the ball falls to the ground ... see the screen grab below. Then, as Mackay approaches, Clark clearly has no sense Mackay is about to leave the ground, hit him hard and break his jaw—logic says he would have braced for that contact or altered his course. He did neither.
View attachment 12622

That is where this argument completely falls over. The risk of catastrophic injury was made all the more possible by Mackay choosing to barrel into the contest. So, what were better options? He could have waited for Clark to take clean possession and have tackled him. He could have contested the loose ball if Clark fumbled. He could have corralled Clark in an effort to intercept his disposal. He could have allowed Clark's opponent (Berry, I think it was) to have broken up the play with a tackle ... after all, he was right on his hammer. The point is, he had options that would have better reflected the duty of care a player has to minimise the chances of a terrible injury to an opponent. And, crucially, he had time to assess these options and change his actions.

You're undoing yourself here. Why, then, did Mackay opt to run directly at Clark if the fall of the ball was so unpredictable? Probably because his primary goal was not to possess the ball but to inflict maximum hurt.

Has that been confirmed? Source please. I doubt they even ran a concussion test, given the nature of the injuries.

Bear in mind our knowledge of concussion is improving rapidly, off a low base. In the past 10 years, we've learned a lot.

More and more parents will steer their kids away from footy unless the game is seen to be taking affirmative action on unnecessary and avoidable head-high hits.

So, to those who say the so-called sanitised game is not footy as they know and love it, would you prefer footy disappeared into irrelevance because the next generations are choosing soccer and basketball instead?

Footy's great without this kind of incident. In fact, it's better without it.

Disagree again. I think you let yourself down with exaggeration and emotive language.
Firstly, he is not 20m away in the above picture. Mackay has no idea whether Clark sees him or not. To argue that Mackay should somehow change his course of action because Clark may not be aware of him is unfair on Mackay. Clark must have tunnel vision to have not been aware of anyone coming form the other side of the ball once it cleared him and he turned to follow it. But again, whether Clark does or doesn't see him is not Mackay's issue. You cannot predict whether the ball was going to sit up for Clark or roll away from him. Mackay committed to getting to the contest. Of course he is unaware at that point if he would get there first but they are trained once they make a decision to go at 100%.
Catastrophic injury? I think that's way over the top.
His goal was to inflict maximum hurt?? Glad you know what he should have done with the benefit of countless replays and hindsight. Footy isn't played in review. His goal was to disrupt the contest.

It is a collision sport, if you don't want to have physical contact don't play it. Marking contests are potentially dangerous. Ruck contests are potentially dangerous. Contested ball situations are potentially dangerous.

I think Dunstall made some very good points asking how do you legislate for these types of collisions where no one is in possession? With an odd shaped ball that isn't always predictable? Saying you can't run fast to a contest goes against the nature of the sport IMO. Would you allow players to accelerate to contests to spoil like Rance did countless times in his career?

Are you arguing they didn't bother to test Clark for concussion because his other injury was worse? He wasn't concussed, there is no medical report of concussion nor was it raised at the tribunal.

Again, what about the recent knockouts in marking contests? In tackles? How do you stop those?
 
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Number8

Tiger Superstar
Oct 12, 2010
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I think you let yourself down with exaggeration and emotive language.
I'm not in the least bit emotional about this. I've presented a series of facts as best I can. My outlook has nothing on the hand-wringing of some in the AFL community who had decided the very fabric of the game was under threat if Mackay was suspended.

I think the problem here is that those of us who want to see the duty of care concept better understood and more rigorously applied on the footy field are thought of as being hysterical. The issue of concussion and CTE is too important for hyperbole and emotional thinking. I think history will show this to be a worthy fight.
Firstly, he is not 20m away in the above picture.
In my post, I said when the ball first hits the ground, Mackay is easily 20m away from Clark. Taking another look now, I reckon it's closer to 25m. The AFL's counsel, Jeff Gleeson, said in his submission it was '20-plus metres'. That was not disputed.

The fact is, he was far enough away to generate significant speed and to decide how he'd impact the contest. That is all that matters.
Mackay has no idea whether Clark sees him or not.
This goes to the core of the matter and is where Mackay's duty of care kicks in.

Bizarrely, it was Adelaide's counsel at the tribunal, Andrew Culshaw, who saw fit to spell out Mackay's options:

“Could he have stopped, waited, tackled? Absolutely. But the fact there was another action doesn’t make it unreasonable for him to go for the ball. There are always multiple options - marking or spoiling, tackling or corralling.” Of course, when he says it wasn't "unreasonable" for Mackay to "go for the ball", he conveniently leaves out the speed of the impact and the fact Clark was unaware of the impending contact. But, look at all the options his very own counsel said were open to Mackay. His choice to ignore them all means the consequences of his actions are largely on him.

This was not a one-off incident of its type. Look at two other collisions this season: the Harbrow hit on Gibbons and the O'Meara hit on Hayward. All three players who've been felled—Clark, Gibbons and Hayward—are chasing a loose ball with eyes only for it, and are hit in the head in exactly the same way ... by an opponent who makes contact with their shoulder.

The pattern is clear. When a player is hunting a loose ground ball, their attention is purely focused on the ball and not the oncoming player. It happens time and again. Given it is consistently putting players out of the game, whether that be through concussion or an awful facial injury, isn't it time to put the duty of care onto the opponent? We can't allow this to continue.
Catastrophic injury? I think that's way over the top.
Peter Jess doesn't. That was his description of the outcome. If the AFL community is yet to come to terms with the nature of 'duty of care', then the court action he's working towards with Greg Griffin on behalf of past players will likely bring everyone up to speed. By the way, it is expected Clark will miss the remainder of the season due to the severity of his injuries. How is that not a catastrophic outcome?
Are you arguing they didn't bother to test Clark for concussion because his other injury was worse?
No, I was speculating his injury was so severe that (a) a test may not have possible under the circumstances, (b) it was likely assessed there was a greater priority getting Clark to hospital to have his jaw stabilised and (c) there was no likelihood Clark would return to the ground so it was possibly rendered unnecessary.

Given how easily a player can be concussed—think Dusty and Marshall in recent weeks—I'd be amazed if Clark would have passed a concussion test on that hit.
It is a collision sport, if you don't want to have physical contact don't play it.
You hear this one rolled out a lot. It's a lazy statement and, in this case, irrelevant. For example, if Mackay had bumped Clark in the side rather than the face, there would have been no tribunal hearing. Physical contact occurred, per the rules and expectations of all players on the arena, just not the forceful, front-on, head-high, avoidable contact of this instance.
Again, what about the recent knockouts in marking contests? In tackles? How do you stop those?
You make the assumption that those lobbying for actions like Mackay's to be sanctioned actually think concussions can be removed from the game. They can't and it's not the point. Accidents happen. What we want to see is a greater duty of care to minimise the foreseeable head knocks, so that fewer and fewer past players lead awful lives in retirement.
 
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leon

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Apr 6, 2014
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I'm not in the least bit emotional about this. I've presented a series of facts as best I can. My outlook has nothing on the hand-wringing of some in the AFL community who had decided the very fabric of the game was under threat if Mackay was suspended.

I think the problem here is that those of us who want to see the duty of care concept better understood and more rigorously applied on the footy field are thought of as being hysterical. The issue of concussion and CTE is too important for hyperbole and emotional thinking. I think history will show this to be a worthy fight.

In my post, I said when the ball first hits the ground, Mackay is easily 20m away from Clark. Taking another look now, I reckon it's closer to 25m. The AFL's counsel, Jeff Gleeson, said in his submission it was '20-plus metres'. That was not disputed.

The fact is, he was far enough away to generate significant speed and to decide how he'd impact the contest. That is all that matters.

This goes to the core of the matter and is where Mackay's duty of care kicks in.

Bizarrely, it was Adelaide's counsel at the tribunal, Andrew Culshaw, who saw fit to spell out Mackay's options:

“Could he have stopped, waited, tackled? Absolutely. But the fact there was another action doesn’t make it unreasonable for him to go for the ball. There are always multiple options - marking or spoiling, tackling or corralling.” Of course, when he says it wasn't "unreasonable" for Mackay to "go for the ball", he conveniently leaves out the speed of the impact and the fact Clark was unaware of the impending contact. But, look at all the options his very own counsel said were open to Mackay. His choice to ignore them all means the consequences of his actions are largely on him.

This was not a one-off incident of its type. Look at two other collisions this season: the Harbrow hit on Gibbons and the O'Meara hit on Hayward. All three players who've been felled—Clark, Gibbons and Hayward—are chasing a loose ball with eyes only for it, and are hit in the head in exactly the same way ... by an opponent who makes contact with their shoulder.

The pattern is clear. When a player is hunting a loose ground ball, their attention is purely focused on the ball and not the oncoming player. It happens time and again. Given it is consistently putting players out of the game, whether that be through concussion or an awful facial injury, isn't it time to put the duty of care onto the opponent? We can't allow this to continue.

Peter Jess doesn't. That was his description of the outcome. If the AFL community is yet to come to terms with the nature of 'duty of care', then the court action he's working towards with Greg Griffin on behalf of past players will likely bring everyone up to speed. By the way, it is expected Clark will miss the remainder of the season due to the severity of his injuries. How is that not a catastrophic outcome?

No, I was speculating his injury was so severe that (a) a test may not have possible under the circumstances, (b) it was likely assessed there was a greater priority getting Clark to hospital to have his jaw stabilised and (c) there was no likelihood Clark would return to the ground so it was possibly rendered unnecessary.

Given how easily a player can be concussed—think Dusty and Marshall in recent weeks—I'd be amazed if Clark would have passed a concussion test on that hit.

You hear this one rolled out a lot. It's a lazy statement and, in this case, irrelevant. For example, if Mackay had bumped Clark in the side rather than the face, there would have been no tribunal hearing. Physical contact occurred, per the rules and expectations of all players on the arena, just not the forceful, front-on, head-high, avoidable contact of this instance.

You make the assumption that those lobbying for actions like Mackay's to be sanctioned actually think concussions can be removed from the game. They can't and it's not the point. Accidents happen. What we want to see is a greater duty of care to minimise the foreseeable head knocks, so that fewer and fewer past players lead awful lives in retirement.
As usual, very well said, No.8. I'm in full agreement. If it was so incidental and accidental because McKay was going for the ball, why does he turn his shoulder and jump off the ground in the last couple of strides?
He realised contact was unavoidable at that point, and shoulder to hip contact would have been fine (as in Stack on Viney) , but he did these things to hit Hunter harder, higher and protect himself only.

Heard poor Hunter has terrible damage to jaw, mouth and teeth and will probably have to wear a metal plate for the rest of his life.
 
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Willo

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As usual, very well said, No.8. I'm in full agreement. If it was so incidental and accidental because McKay was going for the ball, why does he turn his shoulder and jump off the ground in the last couple of strides?
He realised contact was unavoidable at that point, and shoulder to hip contact would have been fine (as in Stack on Viney) , but he did these things to hit Hunter harder, higher and protect himself only.

Heard poor Hunter has terrible damage to jaw, mouth and teeth and will probably have to wear a metal plate for the rest of his life.
Sorry, but I disagree.
He never jumped off the ground in the last couple of strides at all Leon.
It was only when impact occurred that his feet left the ground.
Turning his shoulder? Well I’d say if a player saw another player in his peripheral vision, it makes sense to turn to endeavour to protect oneself. It’s what players are taught, so well it’s almost instinctive.

Unfortunate outcome for Clarke and I hope he makes a full recovery. But it’s the antithesis of a Byron Pickett incident where he used to pick players off. Mackay has been a ball player all of his career.
 
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TrialByVideo

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Mar 1, 2015
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He's kidding himself Scott. .... I would imagine the majority of opposition supporters reckon Selwood is a staging cheat.... sad to say, as I used to enjoy watching him play before he turned shrugging and dropping low, into an art form!

Anyway, I just listened to Taylor Duryea interviewed who clearly believes it wasn’t an accident what Selwood did to him!
 
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Ridley

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He's kidding himself Scott. .... I would imagine the majority of opposition supporters reckon Selwood is a staging cheat.... sad to say, as I used to enjoy watching him play before he turned shrugging and dropping low, into an art form!

Anyway, I just listened to Taylor Duryea interviewed who clearly believes it wasn’t an accident what Selwood did to him!
*smile* hell Salty Scott is just a complete arsewipe. Selwood has been getting away with the crap for years and so was Ablett who elbowed different blokes in the head 3 times before he was called to account. Not to mention the crap that Dangerfield and Hawkins get away with. And all the while Salty claims they are just misunderstood and deserve more respect.

They are all cut from the same cloth; arsecloth.
 
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WesternTiger

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He's kidding himself Scott. .... I would imagine the majority of opposition supporters reckon Selwood is a staging cheat.... sad to say, as I used to enjoy watching him play before he turned shrugging and dropping low, into an art form!

Anyway, I just listened to Taylor Duryea interviewed who clearly believes it wasn’t an accident what Selwood did to him!
"For some silly reason, you people want to assassinate him. It's just rubbish. You people, all of you, ALL OF YOU, leave him alone!"
 
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DavidSSS

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Dec 11, 2017
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The Mackay incident is an interesting one. As the rules stand now, it looks incidental, but, the way the rules are written straight to the tribunal to come up with a decision is what the rules clearly state.

Where I think this shifts is that I reckon they will have to bring in a rule where there is a duty of care to avoid hitting the head in that sort of situation. If framed properly it would give a clear indication to a player in Mackay's situation that if they are likely to collide with a player when running at the ball, that they have to avoid the head. If Mackay had hit Clarke in the body, which would take a very small deviation in his line running to the ball, then no issue.

Interesting how Danger smacking his elbow into Vlastuin did not lead to this debate. Maybe it would have if the AFL had followed their own rules and cited the case.

DS
 
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