Now - Dont wanna be harsh but,

[DragaTheCro]

Rayzorwire, I agree with you about Johnson. He gets too many easy kicks and lacks urgency. He needs to get a wriggle on when he has the ball. He is our captain, he needs to inspire his teammates, and IMO I dont think he does. In regards to Patrick Bowden, I reckon the jury is still out on him. Have to say that he did show something last night, if only briefly.

That was the worst performance I have seen in a long long time, and what made it worse was being Friday night football, it was shown live around Australia. The positive is that we can't play any worse against St.Kilda next week, or can we?

 

[Rayzorwire]

I think the recruiting of Browny was good for the Club and will continue to prove to be in the long run. You would always want a class player like him on your list.

I'm very much in two minds over his recruitment. He's without doubt among the best small forwards in the league and I like the way he has played with us. Ultimately though, you have to ask questions about whether he is worth his money if he was only ever capable of pinch-hitting in the midfield at his best. It's a lot of dollars for a very good small forward who can only be useful with a good midfield to back him. Ask yourself where we'd be now if Tuck hasn't surprised most and taken steps towards becoming an elite midfielder? We finished stone motherless last in 2004 with Brown, which I think is pretty much all the answer needed.

We have to bear in mind that we cannot have a team of Juniors only running around- even the Saints and Dogs have not gone down that path. My major concern is that the Bullies older players are far superior to ours (West, Johnson, Smith, etc) and where will that leave us in 2-3 years time.

I'm not naive enough to suggest that we don't need older, strong bodies on the park, more that we need to be careful how much we're paying them bearing in mind our financial situation, whether their salary is detracting from getting the young blood needed, perhaps most importantly, what lessons they are teaching the younger brigade. There's plenty of older bodies around you can pick up for next to nothing if rebuilding for the future is truly the aim.

Time and time again I hear what a fantastic attitude Johnson has to training, what a professional he is etc. None of it amounts to squat when younger players watch him go into his shell when times get tough and chase cheap possessions to get the 20+ he knows will get him a pass. Ditto J Bowden.

To defend Greg Miller and TW somewhat, you have to acknowledge that they have in 2 years turned over a lot of players, and based on last night, they will certainly need to do so again at the end of this year!! As I said on the earlier post, 5 years is the time frame given to TW, and he will need all of it, and possibly more, to get us to where we want to be.

They have turned over a lot of players and they started from a horrible position with an abysmal list. I just disagree with Miller's attempted juggling act of the present and the future, plus the mature players he has recruited and kept, and quite a bit on the sort of young players he has chosen.

The hard at it inside mids he's got using the throw away end of the draft picks - they will more than likely still have major flaws when they get to seniors like the current ones who aren't cutting it.

Polished receivers and quality forwards are the icing on the cake when you have a solid foundation of 4-7 tough, fast, hard runners capable of playing inside and capable of reasonable disposal.

I'm struggling to find one on our list.

 

[TigerMasochist]

It's a fair comment. However, my problem with it is that it doesn't take into account our recruiting policy since Miller and Wallace arrived. If we're rebuilding and not chasing finals, then why have we chased Brown at big money when we could have listed youngsters instead, why on earth did we chase Simmonds and sign him for 5-years when any old hack on a 1-year contract is just as good or better (i.e. Knobel), why do we build our backline around a serial downhill skiier like Joel Bowden, why did we recruit his brother who is worse in all respects, why have we elevated and retained Johnson who carries flak in the body and can't/won't do the hard work required of a leader and premier onballer, why do we persist in retaining the likes of Tivendale and Stafford who can't take us anywhere long term.

Miller thinks he's capable of juggling immediate success with long term rebuilding...and has subsequently dropped all the balls IMO. If the aim was rebuilding then we could and should have another 5-6 young players on the list who will be ready to shine at the end of the 5 year plan.

A large part of the reason we got players like Johnson and Brown  is that we had bugger all players of any ability in the 23 to 27 year old range at the time and really still don't. It's no coincidence that they are Capt. and VC. That downhill skier has been our best player for the last two years, "scary isn't it"?
Simmo is in this similar age bracket and we needed a ruckman fairly desperately.
I reckon Miller and Plough know exactly how bad the list was/still is. They also realised that we were scraping the bottom of the barrel in regard to players that are the core professional footballers who could pass on to the young kids what the requirements are to prepare yourself for an AFL season.
Thats why we grabbed Mark Graham for a year and hung onto the big Stiffy this year.
We are still at least a couple of years from getting our young kids into consistent senior players and will lose most of our senior players by the time they come through, our middle tier players have been virtually non existant for ages and will remain so until we have completed a full generational turnover of players.
It's taken Bomber Thompson 6/7 years to build his list at Geelong.
How long has Thomas the Tank been at the Saints now? And they have had the advantage over Geelong of grabbing some serious priority players.
If Plough had stayed at the Doggies maybe they wouldn't have gone backwards for a couple of years as they did under Rhodes, and he would be getting all the credit for having built the side that smashed us last night.
Have no fear Rayzor and others, there are still plenty of nightmares ahead of us over the next couple of years, but a full rebuild is underway. Do you have the necessaries to hang in there?
To quote an old and now passed away favourite " And loving it ".  Regards Maso.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Have no fear Rayzor and others, there are still plenty of nightmares ahead of us over the next couple of years, but a full rebuild is underway. Do you have the necessaries to hang in there?

I've been a supporter since 1981 when I was 6yo and seen ZERO Tiger glory TM. Some of you have premierships you saw to hold onto - spare a thought for those of us who have spent quarter of a century with no relief whatsoever. I can't barrack for any other club and never would...not bothering to watch is my only option.

Some of these high paid, spoilt and coddled players forget who their employer is - the fans.

I give credit where credit's due and apportion blame in exactly the same way. Fairly IMO.

Others have a perfect right to disagree...though I notice few will do so by actually challenging what I'm saying...just one-line dismissals.

 

[Djevv]

Rayzor,

I think your summary was pretty accurate. I was absolutely horrified by the lack of leadership shown last night. By the end of I was yelling, tackle them, hit them, get rubbed out, I don't care but for goodness sake DO SOMETHING! And no one did.

Interesting what you said about Tuck. You are correct he his our ONLY matchwinning mid! Cogs was getting there until injured. hasn't been the same since.

Did anyone else notice that when Tuck started WINNING the ball out of the midfield against the Hawks a few weeks ago, carrying the ball FORWARD, then kicking it LONG into the forward line we started WINNING! None of this finessing. No sideways or backwards, just the old Tommy Hafey game plan! Amazing. How simple is this game of football!

I am really concerned for season 2006!

 

[Rayzorwire]

Rayzor,

I think your summary was pretty accurate. I was absolutely horrified by the lack of leadership shown last night. By the end of I was yelling, tackle them, hit them, get rubbed out, I don't care but for goodness sake DO SOMETHING! And no one did.

Interesting what you said about Tuck. You are correct he his our ONLY matchwinning mid! Cogs was getting there until injured. hasn't been the same since.

Did anyone else notice that when Tuck started WINNING the ball out of the midfield against the Hawks a few weeks ago, carrying the ball FORWARD, then kicking it LONG into the forward line we started WINNING! None of this finessing. No sideways or backwards, just the old Tommy Hafey game plan! Amazing. How simple is this game of football!

I am really concerned for season 2006!

Cheers Djevv.

I will say one thing for Cogs, he HAS shown he'll keep giving his all when the chips are down, and unlike many others, when it came to signing his contract he didn't hold us to ransom chasing bigger money than what he thinks he deserves. The bloke has a bit of self-deprecation and reality attached to his own perception of his abilities - he knows he's not much better than the average battler and will live or die on the back of how much he's able to contribute year in year out...I like to see that at the very least.

I wish we had half a dozen Tucky's running around...the scary part is that they're probably out there playing footy in the next grade down...while we chase and retain players who vastly overrate their ability and only ever put in 90% when they can be bothered.

Tenacity and toughness is cheaper and better in the long run as a rebuilding strategy for us...I say bring the talent in from below (juniors) and develop it surrounded by senior players prepared to bleed for the club and their teammates week in week out.

Otherwise we just teach our juniors how to get a cheap individual pass by shirking all responsibility.

 

[Djevv]

Just heard on the radio that the Kangaroos thumped Port over in SA. these guys are all toughness & leadership. Their whole team is built around it. They haven't got many stars, but they know how to win.

Dogs are similar. They have the quick & silky players but they also have West and Johnson as tough hombres who win the ball and know what to do with it when they have it.

Look I haven't given up on Wallace or the Tigers but, Tiger fans, don't expect much till 2009. At roughly that point in time the class of 2005 will be 22 and ready to take the comp by the scruff of the neck.

Untill then, we desperately need to recruit some tough guys with our high draft picks.

 

[tigerfan1961]

[
I reckon Miller and Plough know exactly how bad the list was/still is. They also realised that we were scraping the bottom of the barrel in regard to players that are the core professional footballers who could pass on to the young kids what the requirements are to prepare yourself for an AFL season.
Thats why we grabbed Mark Graham for a year and hung onto the big Stiffy this year.
We are still at least a couple of years from getting our young kids into consistent senior players and will lose most of our senior players by the time they come through, our middle tier players have been virtually non existant for ages and will remain so until we have completed a full generational turnover of players.
It's taken Bomber Thompson 6/7 years to build his list at Geelong.
How long has Thomas the Tank been at the Saints now? And they have had the advantage over Geelong of grabbing some serious priority players.

This is what I was trying to get at in earlier posts. The generational change cannot happen straight away, and will take the full five years (and more) to achieve. In the meantime, losses will continue to happen. We cannot be consistently good until all of our current young players mature and become regular senior players, as I do believe that most of the young guys drafted by Greg Miller/Terry Wallace will become good players for the Club.

 

[mk33]

geez how long did that take to write mate, only read the first line though - i neally threw up

krakour tryed hard laying tackles


well some things never change   :rofl

Well you obviously missed this part: "It's just a cop-out to bag the young and mid-range players yet give passes to our gutless senior players on serious money - starting at the top with Johnson."

Put the blame where it deserves to go - Krakouer certainly didn't lack endeavour, he lacks fitness as he always has.

Will lay off *smile* and Kellaway until they get match up that suit them.

Rayzor agree with you on the Bowdens mate but you could not be more wrong with Johno. Will admit he had an ordinary one last night but to say he does not deserve the number on his back and goes missing 12-14 games a year and passable at best in others is silly, he has finished top 3 in best & fairest in 3 years at the club and is well respected as our captain.

As did Wayne Campbell before him. Both made a career out of getting 20+ cheap possessions in an abysmal side and getting a pat on the back for their efforts because there was nobody else you could reasonably reward. In truth, all either did was hold up all sense of run out of the backline, playing chip short and slow games sideways and along the boundary line. At least Campbell had some G&D, bled for the club and made a good fist of his natural talents.

Johnson?
Not even close!

Apart from his goal which came on the back of the work of others, what did he do all night?

How many possessions in midfield where they count?
How many times did he send the ball inside 50?
How many hard ball gets?
How many times did he motivate anyone?

Did you see him do anything that could be vaguely construed as 'standing up' like a captain should?

Don't take my word for it, read Wallace's dissection of the game.

SENIOR PLAYERS - who do you think he's referring to?

The usual downhill skiing culprits who guarantee every season we'll lose 10+ games a year...when the going gets tough they crawl to the backline and start racking up the individual stats which they know from long experience will get them off the hook.

And the army of supporters like you and the clueless media applaud them all the way... :spin

Finally last night Garry Lyon said what has needed to be said for years:

"Johnson, 23 possessions, well, what has he done with them?"

:
Rayzor read before you bag

I admitted Johno had an ordinary match on Friday.
However I will admit he is easily our best candidate for captain which I have put on his thread as offical of president.
Kane in the last 3 years since he has been at the club has been among the best players when we have won and 3 times placegetter 3 times as best and fairest.
If anything I thought he was one of the ones that got us going a little bit in the 2nd quarter when Lids kicked two goals. I am sure Kane is good enough to get us back on track.