Our National Draft Selections

[Disco08]

2010-T. Cloke
2009-C. Mooney
2008-J. Roughhead (?- I guess he and Franklin switched)
2007-C. Mooney
2006-A. Hansen
2005- ?- Swans- Hall and Mickey O were their KFs- neither really a CHF.

That says a lot. Yes you "need" a CHF for not necessarily a great one. Hansen and Mooney were average CHF's at best and the others aren't elite either. OK, Buddy excepted. If an elite CHF was vital to win a flag you'd imagine the Saints would have claimed at least one by now though.

If we've got a midfield like Geelong's I'm sure we can find a player (either in house or acquired) to play the role Mooney played.

 

[Scoop]

That says a lot. Yes you "need" a CHF for not necessarily a great one. Hansen and Mooney were average CHF's at best and the others aren't elite either. OK, Buddy excepted. If an elite CHF was vital to win a flag you'd imagine the Saints would have claimed at least one by now though.

If we've got a midfield like Geelong's I'm sure we can find a player (either in house or acquired) to play the role Mooney played.

Spot on Disco. Even using Buddy is a semi-stretch. I think you do need a key forward who can take a contested grab and we have the best one under 23 in the AFL. That is enough.

We need to stockpile Mids. That simple.

I do think the Brown surgrey story puts Lynch very much in the frame for Brisbane. Things change as we go.

Hopefully we can get Heppell.

 

[pahoffm]

CHF is the key position in a grand final. Must have one to win.

As I said, you need a CHF to win, doesn't have to be a great one.

But I did give a couple of examples of great ones.

Whether you like, or not, Hansen, Mooney, Hall, Roughead, Brown, Hird, Robran, Carey, Langdon, Brereton, Kernahan, Cloke, Briedis, Martello, Hart, Walls and earlier,

All their teams played through them to secure Inside50 marks & clear possession at HF.

And it's best to have more than one key forward.

One key forward only and opposition defenses double team you. Often during the season, Reiwoldt was double tagged out of a game. And memory serves that the team had most of their wins when BOTH Reiwoldt and Griffiths were playing.

You need two, a CHF and a FF. Some have a third leading forward.
Collingwood - Cloke & Dawes
Geelong - Mooney & Ottens, with Hawkins, Ablett or AblettN
Hawthorn - Roughead & Franklin, with Williams
Westcoast - Hansen & Lynch, with Embley
Sydney - Hall & O'Loughlin, with Goodes & O'Keefe
Brisbane - Brown & Lynch, with Bradshaw
North - Carey & McKernan
Adelaide - Ellis & Robran, with Jarman
Westcoast - Langdon/Ball & Sumich
Hawthorn - Brereton & Dunstall, with Abbott & others

And so on.

AS for us.

Griffiths or Mitchell would be a good competition for CHF, both juniors, combining with the now established Reiwoldt.

Mitchell wouldn't need a #6, due to his almost year long shoulder recovery. A 2nd round pick would get him.

Combine Mitchell with either Gilbee or Lamb for our other 2nd round pick and you have a great set up for the future. Adaptable too.

Option 1:
HF: Taylor, Griffiths/Mitchell, Cotchin
F: Vickery, Reiwoldt, Lamb/Gilbee

or

Option 2:
HF: Reiwoldt, Mitchell, King
F: Cotchin, Griffiths, Lamb/Gilbee

Very adaptable.

Many sides get to finals and get hamstrung by injuries.

A good spread of key forwards, talls, mediums & a small create a world of options.

Save pick #6 for the best midfielder we can get.

As I've always said, midfielders are the engine room by which your team runs.
Collingwood were able to rotate Swan, Pendlebury, Johnson, Ball, Beams, Sidebottom & Blair through their premiership midfield.

How many premiership midfielders do we have?

 

[TigerForce]

As I said, you need a CHF to win, doesn't have to be a great one.

But I did give a couple of examples of great ones.

Whether you like, or not, Hansen, Mooney, Hall, Roughead, Brown, Hird, Robran, Carey, Langdon, Brereton, Kernahan, Cloke, Briedis, Martello, Hart, Walls

Great ones.........Briedis, Robran ?? Langdon CHF?? Martello CHF?? Surely you jest Phanto?

You need two, a CHF and a FF. Some have a third leading forward.
Collingwood - Cloke & Dawes
Geelong - Mooney & Ottens, with Hawkins, Ablett or AblettN
Hawthorn - Roughead & Franklin, with Williams
Westcoast - Hansen & Lynch, with Embley
Sydney - Hall & O'Loughlin, with Goodes & O'Keefe
Brisbane - Brown & Lynch, with Bradshaw
North - Carey & McKernan
Adelaide - Ellis & Robran, with Jarman
Westcoast - Langdon/Ball & Sumich
Hawthorn - Brereton & Dunstall, with Abbott & others

And so on.

Carey & Longmire were the duo.

 

[Disco08]

The Dogs managed to sustain a good run and go pretty close with no real key forwards. Good midfield though. I know you'll argue that they didn't go all the way, but it wasn't the lack of forwards that stopped them. In 09 it was nothing more than bad kicking that lost them crucial games against eventual champions.

 

[jb03]

That says a lot. Yes you "need" a CHF for not necessarily a great one. Hansen and Mooney were average CHF's at best and the others aren't elite either. OK, Buddy excepted. If an elite CHF was vital to win a flag you'd imagine the Saints would have claimed at least one by now though.

If we've got a midfield like Geelong's I'm sure we can find a player (either in house or acquired) to play the role Mooney played.

Haven't the saints got Reiwoldt?

 

[Disco08]

Do you have to ask? That's the point mate. Reiwoldt but no flag.

 

[jb03]

Do you have to ask? That's the point mate. Reiwoldt but no flag.

Thought you were saying the Saints should chase one in order to be able to win the flag.

 

[pahoffm]

Look at that quote again Tigerforce.

Where did I say that they were all great?

I did previously give an example of two great ones in Hart & Brereton. Would you dispute them being great?

"As I said, you need a CHF to win, doesn't have to be a great one."

AS for your disputing Carey & McKernan, I suggest you check whether Longmire played any significant role in either the 1996 or 1999 premierships.

In fact your point supports mine.

Longmire was injured in 1996, and was not in a position to take a vital role due to injury in 1999 either.
Carey & McKernan were the CHF / FF combination.
1996 - Carey 1, McKernan held goal-less, Crocker as a decoy 3 goals.
1999 - McKernan 3, Carey 2 goals. Longmire was an interchange back up.

As I said, it supports my argument.
If Reiwoldt or Griffiths go down, you have a third key forward alternative.

 

[pahoffm]

Haven't the saints got Reiwoldt?

Yes, but they didn't have a 2nd key forward, and as a result Collingwood double tagged him.

Kosi was pushed into the ruck in the drawn game and back to his normal form in the replay.

The Saints lacked key forward options.

Compare this with Collingwood who had Cloke and Dawes, and could also use Brown and Jolly up forward too.

It is about key forward options.

One team, StKilda, hamstrung.
The other, Collingwood, with endless forward & midfield options.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Haven't the saints got Reiwoldt?

Yep and two years in a row they came within pissing distance of winning a flag without him even playing well.
CHF whether brilliant or just reasonably competent is still the major pivot point for clubs attacking moves and forward structure, the rest of the forward line still swings around how the Centre half Forward works. In the air, at ground level around the fall of the ball, in the creation of space for the other forwards to work and to keep opposition defenders from peeling off to create two one one contests.

 

[Disco08]

And all of that pales into insignificance compared to the importance of winning the midfield, IMHO.

Yes, but they didn't have a 2nd key forward, and as a result Collingwood double tagged him.

Kosi was pushed into the ruck in the drawn game and back to his normal form in the replay.

Koschitzke is easily the equal of the guys I listed previously. St Kilda got smashed because Collingwood's midfield supplied a third more inside 50's for their team, not because they needed a better 2nd forward that Koschitzke.

Anyway, I'd agree with you Michael that adding another key forward of decent size with our second rounder would be a good idea. The problem is do we prioritise that over other positions that need topping up also? Would we take Mitchell if someone like Parker, Lamb or Harper slid to our pick? Are we confident enough to maybe pick from the leftovers later in the draft and develop them into players that can compete at a level similar to what Mooney and Dawes can when supplied by a dominant midfield?

 

[TigerForce]

Look at that quote again Tigerforce.

Where did I say that they were all great?

I did previously give an example of two great ones in Hart & Brereton. Would you dispute them being great?

"As I said, you need a CHF to win, doesn't have to be a great one."

AS for your disputing Carey & McKernan, I suggest you check whether Longmire played any significant role in either the 1996 or 1999 premierships.

In fact your point supports mine.

Longmire was injured in 1996, and was not in a position to take a vital role due to injury in 1999 either.
Carey & McKernan were the CHF / FF combination.
1996 - Carey 1, McKernan held goal-less, Crocker as a decoy 3 goals.
1999 - McKernan 3, Carey 2 goals. Longmire was an interchange back up.

As I said, it supports my argument.
If Reiwoldt or Griffiths go down, you have a third key forward alternative.

Hart & Brereton were definitely playmakers but some of the others on your list were stand-in CHFs. Wasn't Langdon more a flanker?

You don't have to be a great CHF as you say, but as long as you provide great assistance to the forwards and mids around you, as Carey always did, then your team will succeed.

As for Horse, he and McKernan played virtually 200 games each but kicked double the goals (511 to 250) along with kicking bags in games alongside Carey, so I can't see how McKernan and Carey paired better.

I'd assess H&A games more than just 2 GFs. It wasn't Horse's fault he was injured in both of them.

 

[pahoffm]

As for Horse, he and McKernan played virtually 200 games each but kicked double the goals (511 to 250) along with kicking bags in games alongside Carey, so I can't see how McKernan and Carey paired better.

I'd assess H&A games more than just 2 GFs. It wasn't Horse's fault he was injured in both of them.

As I said, when Longmire went down, they still had Carey & McKernan.

That is why I'd take Mitchell, as well as having Reiwoldt & Griffiths.

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this point?

If your aim is H&A games, amen.

My aim is GFs & premierships.

 

[pahoffm]

Hart & Brereton were definitely playmakers but some of the others on your list were stand-in CHFs. Wasn't Langdon more a flanker?

Langdon was a CHF, not a tall one, more from the Hart / Brereton / Hird mould.

He had Wilson & Heady on his flanks.

 

[spook]

Totally agree Phantom, you need two key forwards in the team, which means you need two in reserve. No coincidence we were 5-0 with Griffiths, 1-16 without him.

 

[gehring]

Will Darling fall to our second pick? A third tall who is quick, aggresive, good footy skills but above all has an excellent footy brain. Slotted into the forward pocket (Vickery must earn his place) he would be a great counter to Jack, smart enough to create his own space and very dangerous if left alone. At 190 and with good defensive skills he compliments but is different to Taylor, Riewoldt, Griffiths, and 2 smalls. He is also ready to play AFL with WAFL experience and a big body. Can only hope but a tantalising prospect.

 

[TigerForce]

As I said, when Longmire went down, they still had Carey & McKernan.

That is why I'd take Mitchell, as well as having Reiwoldt & Griffiths.

Is Mitchell really 96kgs from what you've seen?

What about Tom Lynch?

 

[Disco08]

Totally agree Phantom, you need two key forwards in the team, which means you need two in reserve. No coincidence we were 5-0 with Griffiths, 1-16 without him.

Can you explain the Bulldogs' success in recent years in that context spook? Michael?

 

[Scoop]

I don't see Luke Mitchell as the answer at #29.

I see far too many good mids around that pick to go after Mitchell.

We only need a second fiddle. If Post, Vickery, Griffiths can't do that then we have wasted picks.

Load up on mids that are complete footballers.