Our Ruckmen once again. | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Our Ruckmen once again.

Lets just pray Dean Putt turns out alrite. Simmonds for all his ability is a dissapointment as a pure ruckman. He picks and chooses when he wants to leap over the opposition ruckman. Aronud the ground hes great but at centre bounces if he dosent use his spring he gets towelled up.
 
Can anyone who has seen a bit of Cartledge at Coburg tell me whether he is a good tap ruckman or is he an around the ground ruckman like Simmo??
 
To me,unless the tap goes directly to one of your players it's the on ballers who are most important in the ball ups.We were smashed once the ball hit the ground from centre bounces yesterday.
 
French Tiger said:
To me,unless the tap goes directly to one of your players it's the on ballers who are most important in the ball ups.We were smashed once the ball hit the ground from centre bounces yesterday.

Yesterday most of Jollys and Everitts taps went to one of their own. Our guys couldn't even nullify them.
 
Read this article the other day, found the link on the web.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_great_ruck_myth

Gerard Healy
Friday, May 30, 2008 at 10:50am


RUCKWORK is dying. When rovers were given armchair rides by legends John Nicholls and Polly Farmer in the 1960s and ‘70s, the craft of ruckwork was celebrated.

And ruckmen were rightly lauded as lions who ruled the football jungle.

But research shows that in today’s football, despite what we are continually told, it is a very different story.

For many reasons, including defensive strategies of coaches at stoppages, the effectiveness of ruckwork is more myth than reality today.

FACT

Let’s start by looking at some facts and the most compelling of all is that only 22 per cent of hitouts go to advantage across the competition.

ON average only one in five, at most, of the clearances in football can be in any way attributed to ruckmen, according to the AFL’s official stats provider Champion Data.

You can argue the merits of the definition - a successful hitout is classed as one that goes to a teammate who is able to get a possession - but it’s not going to change the fact that this figure - one in five - is almost a knockout blow for those who believe the ruckwork myth.

And that is without even trying to estimate how many “hitouts to advantage” are the work of the clearance player who turns a non-directed tap into a first possession.

If you are still seduced by the ruckwork myth, consider the two key jobs of the ruckman at a contest: winning the tap and then successfully directing it. Of the 523 ruck contests the best tap ruckman has competed in this season, he achieved both objectives just 71 times.

DEAN COX

WEST Coast ruckman Dean Cox, the best big man we’ve seen possibly since Simon Madden, would command a $1 million salary if he was on the open market, but how much of his value can be assigned to ruckwork?

In 2008 Cox has won a hitout to advantage from 10.3 per cent of his ruck contests.

Of major interest, though, is the fact that this figure is 25 per cent down on his average from 2003-07 when he had Chris Judd, Ben Cousins and Daniel Kerr at his feet.

This suggests a significant proportion of successful hitouts are dependent on the receiver and not the provider.

AARON SANDILANDS

SOME say the tallest man in the game hasn’t delivered, but, in the ruck alone he is playing at All-Australian standard this year. For the record only - for this statistic is the most useless one in the game - he’s had 74 more hitouts than anyone else in the competition.

But so what - who cares which ruckman gets their hand on the ball first if it doesn’t go anywhere?

It’s value is only that it points to the potential of the man. More important is his 22 more hitouts to advantage than anyone else in the competition - without question, he has done his job.

But the most damning stat in football right now, and one of the core reasons the Dockers are having the problems they are, is that despite Sandilands’ dominance, they are the worst team in the game at clearances.

FACT

Fremantle has won the hitouts in every game but has lost the clearances in every game.

THIS is an indictment on the Dockers’ clearance players and their coaches, and it simply has to be addressed before the year is out.

It is also a strong indicator that ruck efficiency is about a marriage of two equal halves, not the master-servant relationship that is usually portrayed.

Sandilands is the one man who could single-handedly return ruckwork to its former significance, but only if those around him - on and off the field - better utilise this resource.

BRAD OTTENS

OTTENS, back in the Geelong team tomorrow, was given enormous credit for his Grand Final ruck dominance, but it was perception, not reality.

He played extremely well, but it had little to do with his hitouts or traditional ruckwork.

FACT

Brad Ottens had 19 hitouts in the GF - but not one to advantage, according to the research that requires the tap to result in a possession and disposal by a teammate.

THERE were countless assessments of how Ottens and Steven King dominated the ruck over Brendon Lade and Dean Brogan, but that’s not what the numbers tell us.

What the Geelong pair did do was play well around the ground and at stoppages, nullifying a potential advantage of Port Adelaide and providing their clearance players with a neutral playing field.

And as far as ruckwork goes that’s all you really need or want—a competitive effort the gives you an even chance at ground level.

TROY SIMMONDS

THAT’S exactly what you get from the Tigers’ ruckman, who is flying again this year. He rarely wins a tap to advantage—just one in 10—but neither do his opponents.

He jumps early and hopes to neutralise bigger ruckmen, then works at getting the clearance himself.

Ben Hudson works along similar lines at the Bulldogs, and it’s worth noting that in terms of scores from clearances—a more effective measurement than simple clearances—the Tigers rank well above their standing on the ladder and the Bulldogs are No. 2 in the competition.

So, just where does ruckwork fit into the scheme of things, given that so much time, effort and money is put into gaining an advantage there.

In reality there is very little difference between ruckmen in their tapwork, and their influence at stoppages ranks a distance third behind clearance players and random influences, including the third man up.

And that’s not surprising, given the changes to the game.

SAM NEWMAN

NEWMAN was the first to teach ruckwork as a science and worked with Simon Madden to add the science of angles and positioning to Madden’s enormous talent to dominate the game.

But everyone now has the same information, and ruck coaches teach the same theory, so any advantage has been largely neutralised.

We are left too often with a stalemate in which ruckmen either link arms and wrestle to no conclusion at boundary throw-ins or, limited by the centre circle, jump early and often don’t even touch the ball in a meaningful way.

And, unfortunately, much good ruckwork goes unrewarded due to tight tags and scrimmages that lead to the excessive number of secondary bounces; in last week’s Fremantle- Carlton game nearly half of all ruck contests resulted in a secondary bounce.

Despite the myth, clearances are predominantly (in four out of five cases) about players other than the ruckmen, a scenario exacerbated because no one allows ruckmen to belt the ball into space any more, a centre clearance tactic that underpinned Brisbane’s strategy in their premiership era, and one that Fremantle and Aaron Sandilands should consider.

THE CRUNCH PUNCH

SANDILANDS is so dominant in hitouts he has become far too predictable, and adding the “crunch punch” to a predetermined space to his repertoire could help Freo’s clearance problem dramatically, and reassert the value of ruckwork.

Consider this little mindtwister - in the 30 minutes the forgotten Keppler Bradley was in the ruck last week against Carlton, Fremantle dominated clearances.

When the best tap ruckmen in the game was in control the Dockers were slaughtered.

The “block of flats” is so dominant it takes away the random element; too often he hits the ball to the same space.

It wasn’t a coincidence that Adam Bentick stood in the same spot at every Sandilands ruck contest last weekend.

The crunch punch to space is the best way to immediately increase the options the opposition has to consider.

But are the Dockers prepared to take a risk when no one else will?

So far this season there have been only 18 crunch punches to gain a hitout to advantage.

That’s two per week.

Ruckwork is dying because no one wants to take a risk. The Dockers are dying because they are slaves to fashion rather than boldly letting Sandilands become the rucking equivalent of “Twiggy”.

But what of ruckmen in general - are they worth having or was Grant Thomas right when he elected to play Jason Blake in the ruck at the expense of hitouts.

GAME OF THE YEAR

DESPITE what I’ve said so far, the most dominant game of any individual this year, Buddy Franklin included, was by Aaron Sandilands. Yes, a ruckmen.

His Round 6 game against Geelong was phenomenal. He was head and shoulders (literally and metaphorically) above anyone else on the ground.

But that wasn’t because of his hitout numbers, or even his ruckwork in general, but the complete Sandilands package.

He dominated hitouts, winning 48 with 11 to advantage (roughly one in four), but it was his 20 contested possessions and 13 clearances that took his game to the top echelon.

The story was similar in Ottens’ preliminary final last season. He won 24 hitouts with six to advantage, but he actually cleared six stoppages himself and won 15 contested possessions around the ground.

He was considered best on ground but his ruckwork played only a handy part, at best, in the total performance.

THE FUTURE

DEAN Cox provides the evidence and answers to the debate about a ruckman’s worth as he remains one of the game’s most dominant players.

Like most of the top ruckmen today, his ruckwork plays a minor role in clearances with a marginal dominance in hitouts to advantage.

He also has an impact in getting his own clearances, but it is his work as a hard-running, skilful tall midfielder that allows him to exert such an influence on the game.

He adds pace and carry to the West Coast midfield while other ruckmen slow their midfields down.

The influence of ruckwork has never been at a lower ebb, limited by the enormous work of coaches to neutralise stoppages and the centre circle.

The influence of the best ruckmen is still potent, but for very different reasons to the past.

There will still be magical moments when the memories of Nicholls to Gallagher, Farmer to Goggin and Madden to Watson are invoked, but sadly they are all too few.
 
Never thought much of Gerard Healy. As a player, always failed under finals pressure.

His observations about ruck work and his limited ability to put it all together says much about his understanding of it.

Very disappointing.
 
Phantom said:
Never thought much of Gerard Healy. As a player, always failed under finals pressure.

His observations about ruck work and his limited ability to put it all together says much about his understanding of it.

Very disappointing.
yep once again i agree.
 
Couldn't agree more with Healy's artical, Dean Cox is a perfect example of midfielders influence on ruckmen. If Troy played for one of the top teams he would be written up as one of the great ruckmen, Both Sydney and Richmond had 339 disposals each, the difference was Sydney hit targets and we didnt, On Fox in the first half they said that 11 of Sydney's 13 goals at half time came from our turnovers. We ddint apply enough pressure to the ball carrier, didnt run hard enough so that our ball carrier had someone to kick to. Yes we need a ruckman, but I have been to the footy with two of my mates, one a North supporter ans one a Hawthorn supporter, both their midfields make thier ruckmen look very good
 
Tigers of Old said:
Our problem is height.
Simmonds is ok (Patto & Polak no) but we are too short in the ruck. We need some genuine tall timber because try as he might Troy is giving away inches at the ruck contest and getting quality ball down to the mids is proving a nightmare.
I think we'll see Warnock at Richmond next year for a ridiculously overpriced deal next pre-season as those running the show hit the panic button.
Heck Freo are preferring Bradley ahead of him. How good is this guy? :headscratch



fair point Too,

Bradley ahead of Warnock is a head scratcher alright? there is no doubt that Bradley is an out and out DUD

We need some help right now in the ruck :help :help

Surely it is the time now to try some things, put patterson in the forward line, he was recruited for a forward not ruck, get Cartledge on the list and try him,or give Graham a go if fit, we need to make some decisions on some blokes and you can't do that if they never play? it's not rocket science.

In regards to Fremantle, after all we are dealing with the SHOCKERS remember :hihi

They have let players go that CAN play before, maybe Warnock is not a bad option if we can get him, But I agree and not over priced

After all what motivation would you have playing for the SHOCKERS :hihi
 
jb03 said:
What will give for Warnock Tooheys? Our first round pick? Pick 19 for another back flanker would mean more for an area we are actually deficient in.


pick 19? First rounder?

OMG you have just scared me Jb03 :hihi

I hope they don't hit that panic button again

Do not use the panic button again for a Sanchez type Wallet ok? ;D
 
Tigers of Old said:
We should take one on the rookie list every year and I am not talking recycleds(desperate stop gap solutions) like Cartlidge.


Overall I agree with you, but unfortunately we don't have alot of time up our sleeves,

We are in Deep Doo right now :help Otherwise we will need a 5 year extension on 2011

But you are right, our Rookie picks have been rippers, at least we can smile here on this front ;D
 
MC said:
Bradley ahead of Warnock is a head scratcher alright? there is no doubt that Bradley is an out and out DUD

We need some help right now in the ruck :help :help

Surely it is the time now to try some things, put patterson in the forward line, he was recruited for a forward not ruck, get Cartledge on the list and try him,or give Graham a go if fit, we need to make some decisions on some blokes and you can't do that if they never play? it's not rocket science.

Bradley is probably ahead of Warnock because they don't want 2 very tall relatively immobile ruckmen in the team at one time.

As for Patto if we want to put him more up forward then we probably need to play him at Coburg for a few games in that position rather than ruck.
 
MC said:
Overall I agree with you, but unfortunately we don't have alot of time up our sleeves,

We are in Deep Doo right now :help Otherwise we will need a 5 year extension on 2011

But you are right, our Rookie picks have been rippers, at least we can smile here on this front ;D
geez we need to be looking at five yrs from now that would make it 2013. its going to take three drafts to get the list up to scratch theres plenty of time to develop 3 or 4 young ruckmen in that time. one thing for sure it wont happen while miller and wallace are there.
 
IanG said:
Bradley is probably ahead of Warnock because they don't want 2 very tall relatively immobile ruckmen in the team at one time.

As for Patto if we want to put him more up forward then we probably need to play him at Coburg for a few games in that position rather than ruck.
one thing warnock is not and thats immobile. for his height he moves very well its this that has clubs going after him.atm he is a bit light. hes not getting a game at freo because they want him to dominate at wafl level first. i think this is wrong at 21 he needs to be developed at both levels.
i thought he had some good games early in the season but it seems since he has gone into dispute with freo hes struggled a bit.
 
IanG said:
Bradley is probably ahead of Warnock because they don't want 2 very tall relatively immobile ruckmen in the team at one time.

As for Patto if we want to put him more up forward then we probably need to play him at Coburg for a few games in that position rather than ruck.


Not sure why Bradley would be ahead of Warnock? he should still be at Windy Hill if he was any good?

but if that is Harvey's call then so be it.

Yeah agree it can't hurt to try Patto up forward, whether it is Coburg or Tiges? He appears to be in no mans land and we need to figure out what to do with him. One thing for certain is that he was never recruited to be a ruck, so where does he play? That is anyones guess?
 
the claw said:
geez we need to be looking at five yrs from now that would make it 2013. its going to take three drafts to get the list up to scratch theres plenty of time to develop 3 or 4 young ruckmen in that time. one thing for sure it wont happen while miller and wallace are there.


Unfortunately Claw, I may have to agree with you. I am getting impatient and want success now. :hihi

I was never a fan of the 2011 philosophy, I personally think it will be a bit longer and could be closer to your 2013 or so. yes we have to completely nail these next few drafts, there are no short cuts.

I personally believe that we must weed out some more passengers on the list and turn it over some more.

In regards to the ruck stocks, yes we could grab a couple and develop, but the one problem with this theory is that you need to pick them up first. We could end up going for a short cut or quick fix which usually backfires.

Time goes by fast and the 5 years you suggest will fly by if we don't do something, starting from this year in regards to the ruck stocks.

oh well the wheel is turning slowly Claw ;D