Practice game Friday Feb 17 06

[Tango]

But Tango, according to you guys he is apparently too slow to "run & carry" & therefore needs to look for options up the ground.  How many times did he present himself on the wing last year running off his man & seeting himself as a loose man to deliver into the forward line.  You can take your points in isolation, or you can take the balanced view & observe his overall value.  All players have negatives.  You seem to ONLY focus on those & will deliberatley put the blinkers on to any decent bit of play this guys does - just as Pettifer did last year.  Can you guys make up your mind so that we can discuss the point clearly.

Dont bring pettifer into this because i believe he truly adds value, he has flaws but he kicks goals and lots of them
Halls problem is his size, he just cant hold down a KPP and i would rather player a smaller, faster more skilled player on a wing or flank
IMO there will be a spot for hall only until thirsty comes back from injury, that leaves the three tall backs as Gas, *smile* & Thirsty
If Hall was so valuable in the fwd half we would not have taken P.Bowden
IMO the three talls in the fwd half would be Richo, Staff, Patto with Bowden thrown in
that leaves Hall without a spot IMO, there are better players to paly on the flanks and wings, the only other spot might be as a back up tll on the bench - maybe

 

[feisty tige]

It will be interesting to see if Petts can back his last season up with another good year.

(if not improve)

 

[Rayzorwire]

Dont bring pettifer into this because i believe he truly adds value, he has flaws but he kicks goals and lots of them
Halls problem is his size, he just cant hold down a KPP and i would rather player a smaller, faster more skilled player on a wing or flank
IMO there will be a spot for hall only until thirsty comes back from injury, that leaves the three tall backs as Gas, *smile* & Thirsty
If Hall was so valuable in the fwd half we would not have taken P.Bowden
IMO the three talls in the fwd half would be Richo, Staff, Patto with Bowden thrown in
that leaves Hall without a spot IMO, there are better players to paly on the flanks and wings, the only other spot might be as a back up tll on the bench - maybe

Ahhhh, so the totally unproven Schulz, the totally unproven Pattison, the possible potential of Thursfield, and Gaspar who has maybe 2 years left at best, are going to make Rayzor redundant?

It's truly an irrational hatred which can make someone willingly choose the totally unknown (and probably worse) over the perfectly functional.

FWIW, in 2008 I believe our best lineup will be something like this:


FB JON Thursfield Newman
HB Hartigan McGuane Meyer
C Casserley Coughlan Hall
HF Pettifer Hughes Tambling
FF Brown Schulz Richo
Foll Simmonds Tuck Deledio

IC Graham Krakeour Foley Jackson

It's a very fast, skillfull side, very flexible, but it still has need of a Rayzor type - far more than it needs either of the Bowden's or Johnson to be still hanging on at that point...especially when you consider Hyde, White, Raines etc (plus whatever we draft) who are sitting on the sidelines. Unless Pattison can challenge for a ruck role, he is probably not going to displace any of the classier KPPs listed. Which means his chance is to be more mobile, aggressive, flexible and a better kick than Hall - it's very unlikely to happen from what I've seen and heard...particularly on the kicking and mobility fronts.

Bizarre as it may seem at this point, I think some of our current 'stars' are in more trouble down the track (2008+) than Rayzor...there are hordes of talented mid-size players on the list waiting to take over Johnson and Bowden's roles...Hall just has to keep his nose in front of one of Pattison, Thursfield, Schulz, Hughes and Mcguane and he will retire at Richmond a 200+ game player. Considering every single one of them is largely or totally unproven while Hall is proven and in his prime, I'd say it's virtually guaranteed.

You'll just have to learn to love him Tango... :rofl

 

[blaisee]

Now Ray,


this is where I had to stop reading.


You are right, he has improved every year. And at 196cm he has the tools to contribute to the team. I also here that he has had a very solid pre-season , but mate....Hall gets shopped around every year, and no-one bites.

Everybody gets shopped at other clubs, we just have only one player we can conceivably shop. All the rest are either already overpaid for their output (from a market perspective), untouchable, or nobody in their right mind would want them (or all three). As we've seen over recent years, it's very difficult to get any trades through because of a variety of reasons. Half the teams know they can't trade for anyone during trade week...irregardless of who they might actually want.

I think you'll find Hall would have got a game with either premiership contender last year...Sydney have always showed interest in him and the WCE is sadly lacking in players of his stature...arguably cost them a flag not having a Rayzor type or two...they lacked height and guts when it counted.

Ray

Sydney preferred Ted Richards to Ray Hall, and that my friend is no compliment.

And as for West Coast  last time I checked they needed a key forward, and Hall is not a key forward.


Not that I have ever dished Ray, but I am glad you support him on this board, especially if he reads PRE. At least Hall has the right attitude, and attitude ladies and gents is infectious. Rayzowire keep up the good work.

 

[Tango]

you make some good points there the problem is you said: :clap :clap

Hall just has to keep his nose in front of one of Pattison, Thursfield, Schulz, Hughes and Mcguane  :clap ;D

which is correct, thats who he is competing against, however right now Hall is behind both *smile* at CHB and Pattison at CHF and both are only just starting in those roles (what does that say about Hall)

As far as Thursty goes i think he is ahead of Hall also (but injured ATM) and that leaves only Hughes (who i believe will be the best out of all of them) and Mcguane who is showing promise

so based on your commenst i cant see hall getting a game anywhere IMO :hihi

 

[Anduril]

i have never seen newman run down from behind so easily as gumpus hall - and that was 3 times in a practice match by a second string VFL reserves side that were going at half pace (which i might add was 3 times as fast as gumpus)

god help us if he is in our backline when the opposition has some talent and desire

you sh!tecan gaspar and yes he has his flaws, but any opposition coach will be telling their fwds to chase and run down gumpus, - the result - free kick, in front of the sticks - GOAL

Exactly.  Gas was one of the few consistent defenders last year, shut Hall, Lloyd, Gehrig (was taken off) and others  down last year. It is no longer fashionable to bag him.
Have nothing against Ray, he's an honest trier.

 

[Tigers of Old]

I don't mind Ray, he was a capable player for us last year. Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about. Servicable, spare parts tall.
He's never going to set the world on fire but does he have to?
Only problem is I don't see him as our answer at CHB but he's the best we've got until Schulz or someone else proves otherwise.

 

[jayfox]

Dont bring pettifer into this because i believe he truly adds value, he has flaws but he kicks goals and lots of them
Halls problem is his size, he just cant hold down a KPP and i would rather player a smaller, faster more skilled player on a wing or flank
IMO there will be a spot for hall only until thirsty comes back from injury, that leaves the three tall backs as Gas, *smile* & Thirsty
If Hall was so valuable in the fwd half we would not have taken P.Bowden
IMO the three talls in the fwd half would be Richo, Staff, Patto with Bowden thrown in
that leaves Hall without a spot IMO, there are better players to paly on the flanks and wings, the only other spot might be as a back up tll on the bench - maybe

Ahhhh, so the totally unproven Schulz, the totally unproven Pattison, the possible potential of Thursfield, and Gaspar who has maybe 2 years left at best, are going to make Rayzor redundant?

It's truly an irrational hatred which can make someone willingly choose the totally unknown (and probably worse) over the perfectly functional.

FWIW, in 2008 I believe our best lineup will be something like this:


FB JON Thursfield Newman
HB Hartigan McGuane Meyer
C Casserley Coughlan Hall
HF Pettifer Hughes Tambling
FF Brown Schulz Richo
Foll Simmonds Tuck Deledio

IC Graham Krakeour Foley Jackson

It's a very fast, skillfull side, very flexible, but it still has need of a Rayzor type - far more than it needs either of the Bowden's or Johnson to be still hanging on at that point...especially when you consider Hyde, White, Raines etc (plus whatever we draft) who are sitting on the sidelines. Unless Pattison can challenge for a ruck role, he is probably not going to displace any of the classier KPPs listed. Which means his chance is to be more mobile, aggressive, flexible and a better kick than Hall - it's very unlikely to happen from what I've seen and heard...particularly on the kicking and mobility fronts.

Bizarre as it may seem at this point, I think some of our current 'stars' are in more trouble down the track (2008+) than Rayzor...there are hordes of talented mid-size players on the list waiting to take over Johnson and Bowden's roles...Hall just has to keep his nose in front of one of Pattison, Thursfield, Schulz, Hughes and Mcguane and he will retire at Richmond a 200+ game player. Considering every single one of them is largely or totally unproven while Hall is proven and in his prime, I'd say it's virtually guaranteed.

You'll just have to learn to love him Tango... :rofl

What you say is largely true Rayzorsmother, Hall is in our best 22 and is currently better than most of the young KPP defenders on our list. I think that what people are saying is that they can't see him being a dominant CHB in this league but for now he is a required player and until some of the other players prove their worth will be in our 22. Hopefully he can take a big step up this year. If Lewis AlphabetsoupRoberts-Thompson can do it then Hall can. Surely?...... Anybody?..... Hello? ;D

 

[Disco08]

Not that I have ever dished Ray, but I am glad you support him on this board, especially if he reads PRE.

I'm pretty sure he reads PRE.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Ray

Sydney preferred Ted Richards to Ray Hall, and that my friend is no compliment.

And as for West Coast last time I checked they needed a key forward, and Hall is not a key forward.


Not that I have ever dished Ray, but I am glad you support him on this board, especially if he reads PRE. At least Hall has the right attitude, and attitude ladies and gents is infectious. Rayzowire keep up the good work.

Sydney preferred that deal as I see it Blaisee, not necessarily the player. Hall looked a lot more like a key forward in rd21 last year (the only time in the last two years he's spent much time there) than Simmonds did all year. Simmonds is a high paid superstar right...kicked what, 11 for the season and Hall kicked 3 straight in one game. Simmonds was arguably recruited (for bigger money than Hall will ever see) more for his ability at CHF than in the ruck. If the WCE would gladly take Simmonds at CHF then they would certainly do no worse with Hall. Schulz is rated so highly on the back of one 6-goal haul. Rayzor kicked 4 against the exact same team at the exact same stage of his career, and spent some of the game in the ruck and on the bench. The fact that it occurred before Frawley butchered him playing him injured means that people remember him struggling to move - not excelling...that's all been forgotten.

...right now Hall is behind both *smile* at CHB and Pattison at CHF and both are only just starting in those roles (what does that say about Hall)

Behind in what sense? You've misinterpreted Wallace IMO. Neither are replacing Rayzor, Wallace sees him as an attacking player who is of better use up the ground. He's also put both Schulz and Pattison on notice that they'll be dropped if they can't cut it...which means Hall will be moved from elsewhere on the ground to fill their roles...not promoted from Coburg.

As far as Thursty goes i think he is ahead of Hall also (but injured ATM) and that leaves only Hughes (who i believe will be the best out of all of them) and Mcguane who is showing promise

There you go again... ;D

Thursfield has shown he can do an ok job of marking an O'loughlin type for PART of a game. He was dead on his feet by the 3rd quarter and couldn't get near O'loughlin in the last. Yes, he has potential. But he's years away from being within bull's roar of Hall. He's a kid with a lot of work to do yet - Rayzor is a battle hardened man...you just don't seem to get it...

Maybe you would if you saw Thursfield isolated on Hall, the Rocca's, Thompson, Gehrig etc - he's only a boy yet.

Exactly. Gas was one of the few consistent defenders last year, shut Hall, Lloyd, Gehrig (was taken off) and others down last year. It is no longer fashionable to bag him.

I've given him all he's due earlier...he had a season which was fairly acceptable for what he earns and nothing more...I think I'm being generous if anything. He's not in the top 10-15 key defenders in the league but he's STILL paid like he's in the top-3...his former contract was beyond a joke. If he'd never been paid so much people wouldn't expect something special in exchange for it...funny how that works.

 

[blx]

:rofl at all of you getting heated over a pre-season intra-club match  :rofl

good reading though, hey i didn't say nothing man ;D

 

[Tango]

ok Ray its time to stop taking the *smile* out of you

where do you see your best position in our best 22? you mentioned fwd where abouts

where do you want to play & where has Terry said he will play you

IMO the spots you are best suited for is FB, CHB, CHF & FF but there are players that i believe are better suited to those positions than you (not necessarily better players than you - yet)
FB - Gaspar
CHB - *smile*, J.Bowden, P.Bowden
CHF - Patto, Richo, Hughes, P.Bowden, J.Bowden
FF - Richo, Staff, Hughes, Deledio

 

[Rayzorwire]

It's very simple and all well documented Tango.

Hall is ideally being given a running, attacking role this year - probably in an undefined (modern) position as our loose man all over the ground - IF Schulz and Pattison cut the mustard. If they don't, then he'll be the universal band-aid again and play everywhere. And as I've said earlier, every time Gaspar gets exposed Hall will step in, just as he did last year...except he'll probably have to do it a lot more now we've lost Graham.

In summary, in a perfect world Wallace could use Hall as a weapon. In reality, he has to stretch him very thinly everywhere...covering the deficiencies of others.

 

[Tango]

Thanks Ray, sounds like Terry is grooming you as the next J.Hird :cutelaugh :clap :hihi :rofl

 

[tha8ball]

get over it ray....

our weapon suposedly is going to be Patty Bowden......we dont want a war zone..... so unfortunately its time to go.....Ray.

 

[mk33]

Hows are things in Woy Woy Ray ?

Can you give us some more goss from inside the rooms too please.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Thought I'd butt in and stand up for Ray.

At the beginning of 2005 he was the only one who was prepared to put his hand up and make CHB his own. His guts and determination made him competitive. His average disposals (12) and marks (4) were as good as most CHBs in the comp.

His coming of age in 2005 is consistant with the fact that he had turned 24yo. Talls click at 24yo.

My view is that every premiership side has a Mario Bortolotto in it. Ray Hall is our Mario Bortolotto. And he's damned good at being our Mario Bortolotto.

The most sensible post I've seen in this thread since it became the Ray Hall thread. Every side needs a few of what Jack Dyer would have called 'good ordinary players'.

 

[Tango]

we already have a few in Kellaway, gaspar, hyde, simmons - good ordinary footballers

hall, tivendale, chaffey are all outside that list IMO

 

[jb03]

It's very simple and all well documented Tango.

Hall is ideally being given a running, attacking role this year - probably in an undefined (modern) position as our loose man all over the ground - IF Schulz and Pattison cut the mustard. If they don't, then he'll be the universal band-aid again and play everywhere. And as I've said earlier, every time Gaspar gets exposed Hall will step in, just as he did last year...except he'll probably have to do it a lot more now we've lost Graham.

In summary, in a perfect world Wallace could use Hall as a weapon. In reality, he has to stretch him very thinly everywhere...covering the deficiencies of others.

Good on you razorwire. The dislike for Hall has always mystified me too.