Realistic Expectations For Plough's Tenure | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Realistic Expectations For Plough's Tenure

GhostofJimmyJess

Tiger Cub
Dec 19, 2002
83
0
I would be very, very surprised if we are Premiers by 2010 ... it's not beyond the realms of possibility, but very unlikely. And this is not a slight on Plough, but just the plain reality of the structure of modern footy.

You see, what a lot of people seem to fail to appreciate is just how godawful difficult it is to win a Flag nowadays. Statistically, on average, we should be winning one Premiership every sixteen years, given the socialistic nature of the AFL from about 1998 onwards (that's about the stage where the draft and cap really took affect, as just about all of the pre-draft players had been handed the gold watch .. the Essendon and Carlton cheating distorts this a little in the late 90’s, but hopefully that rubbish is all over now).

If we were to judge the performance and success of our club on the number of Premierships in the modern era, then we are in for almost constant disappointment. We have to realise that we are no more likely than Essendon, Melbourne, St Kilda etc to win a Flag nowadays, and probably less likely than the Crows and Eagles, who somehow seem to have a bit of an edge over the stats.

This is not a defeatist attitude, nor is it an acceptance of mediocrity - just plain reality. And of course we should strive to defy the numbers, and build a team that will 'do a Lions' and form a dynasty with repeated Flags. But the reality suggests that in the next twenty years we will be lucky to one Flag, let alone any more than one. And if our footy club are not prepared to accept this likelihood, and act logically in the face of irrational fans who unreasonably demand an ownership of the same sustained success they experienced with (or read about) the club in the 60's and 70's, then we will never win one.

So, we need to redefine what is meant by success in a modern context. Well, four or five years of Finals football in succession would be a start, and not too much to ask for. Some clubs (eg. Essendon, West Coast) have shown that if you do things right off the field, you can defy the odds and get more than your 'fair share' of September action. Maybe they've realised that there are enough Richmonds and St Kildas out there who have made art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, facilitating that they themselves get more of the finals four’n’twenty pie.

It also should not be too much to ask for that we will spend as much time in the Top 4 as we have in the bottom four over the last decade – we’ve had two seasons in the Top 3 in the last decade, but far too many at the other end of the ladder as the trade-off.

Realistically, this is how I see we might be able to structure our development in terms of ladder position over the next half a decade. 2006 & 2007 will probably be bottom 4, with between 5 and 8 wins each just to give us some short-term contentment. 2008 and 2009 should see us with between 8 and 12 wins, reflected in ladder positions 12th to 7th. 2010 and 2011 we hopefully establish ourselves as a Top 4 team, much in the mould of today’s St Kilda or Geelong. If we cannot pinch a flag in 2011, it would be important that we sustain our position over the ensuing three years, as that should be our “Midnight” on the Premiership Clock.

This is what I assumed Plough implied by a “five year plan”. There is no certain recipe for Premiership success, especially not in that brief period, so an expectation of a Premiership is just plain dumb. Any irrational and illogical changes of direction between now and then will only serve to prolong our wait for premiership success.

And if Tiger fans don’t like this modern AFL reality, or don’t have the patience, maybe they should go and barrack for Chelsea or Man United, as one of these two clubs are assured of winning their Premiership next season. Unfortunately, however, we can no longer buy AFL Premierships like the good old days.
 
remember, up the road, not cross the street!

In all seriousness, so long as I can see improvement, I'll be happy for the next year or so. We need to do the hard yards properly, no shortcuts.
 
Hopefully Terry is coaching in 2010 as this means he will be on a new contract and hopefully we are close to a premiership.
I think it is unlikely we will be a serious contender in his first contract.
Bit like you Ghost I see

2006 approx 6-8 wins
2007 approx 8-12 wins
2008 approx 10-14 wins
2009 approx 10-14 wins

with us being a rough chance to start making the 8 in 2007 but should be in the from 2008 onwards. My thinking is 2010 earliest more likely 2011 -12.

Most team structures (playing list) have been in place approx 5 years before they win or challenge for a flag.

Sydney were on the mountain for 4-5 years before climbing it, Port from 1999 before winning in 2004, Brisbane 1996 (with a downhill in 1998) before climbing 2001, Essendon from 1995 before 2000, North 1993 before winning 1996/99. Adelaide may be the slight exception to this rule.
 
It's not the lack of a premiership that worries me actually. It's watching the current team dilute the history of the clubs success to the point where young people are not interested in joining the ranks of supporters. We are now a laughing stock. They mentioned our game (vs Brisbane) on the footy show this week and the panel were giggling about our chances of winning a game over the next few months. How can I encourage my 10 year old nephew to become an avid tigers fan?

If we don't do something soon, our membership base could begin a decline of serious proportions. What this would mean to an already financially troubled club is anyone's guess. So yes...we may see some on-field performance peak in 2010 and 2011 but I think the real issue is can we survive financially until then? RFC is facing a crisis and I don't see any PLAN at all to deal with it! I am sick of hearing about 5 year plans. I think the only plan relating to 5 years was TW saying "I will coach for 5 years".

We must act quickly to give our club some future. The faint hope of appearing in finals in 4 to 5 years time isn't going to be sufficient to secure our long term viability.
 
mexican_radio said:
It's not the lack of a premiership that worries me actually.  It's watching the current team dilute the history of the clubs success to the point where young people are not interested in joining the ranks of supporters.  We are now a laughing stock.  They mentioned our game (vs Brisbane) on the footy show this week and the panel were giggling about our chances of winning a game over the next few months.  How can I encourage my 10 year old nephew to become an avid tigers fan? 

If we don't do something soon, our membership base could begin a decline of serious proportions.  What this would mean to an already financially troubled club is anyone's guess.  So yes...we may see some on-field performance peak in 2010 and 2011 but I think the real issue is can we survive financially until then?  RFC is facing a crisis and I don't see any PLAN at all to deal with it!  I am sick of hearing about 5 year plans.  I think the only plan relating to 5 years was TW saying "I will coach for 5 years".   

We must act quickly to give our club some future.  The faint hope of appearing in finals in 4 to 5 years time isn't going to be sufficient to secure our long term viability. 

I think it's too simplistic to blame the current team......it's not as if they recruited themseves.
As for surviving finacially, if Bulldogs, Hawks, Roos and now Carlton can survive on handouts from the AFL to keep afloat then we may have to too, but we won't go down. Not in the AFL's interests.
Let's stop whinging folks and get behind the rebuilding.
Interesting thoughts GOJJess!.
 
If Terry Wallace could do a Maguire and sweep through the power structure in the club and remake it then we may go forward. Until there is a new broom through the place we will not go forward.
Why do players not have confidence in each other?
Why do players not work with each other?
We need to make a stand and change things.
 
Don't obsess with winning premierships and building a team to win one. All the recent premierships have been won by teams that made the finals for a few years before carrying off the big one. We should look to build a team that will play finals every year. That is what TW is trying to do.
 
GhostofJimmyJess said:
Realistically, this is how I see we might be able to structure our development in terms of ladder position over the next half a decade. 2006 & 2007 will probably be bottom 4, with between 5 and 8 wins each just to give us some short-term contentment. 2008 and 2009 should see us with between 8 and 12 wins, reflected in ladder positions 12th to 7th. 2010 and 2011 we hopefully establish ourselves as a Top 4 team, much in the mould of today’s St Kilda or Geelong. If we cannot pinch a flag in 2011, it would be important that we sustain our position over the ensuing three years, as that should be our “Midnight” on the Premiership Clock.

It is all about recruiting and how well we use our time during periods when we are not really competative, to provide  our youngsters with experience at the top level.

Overall I am happy with our recruitment since Greg has been at the club, although I do think that it should always have been a priority to fill up our rookie list to the brim. :-\  I also think that recruitment and trading generally, may have been hampered by the ill advised offer of long term rather than short term player contracts, a problem perhaps that Greg inherited from the Frawley days? However generally speaking I like the players that have made it through the door over Greg's 3.5 seasons and I believe that there is a very good chance that they will as a group, win us our next flag.

While on the subject of recruitment can any one tell me why we didn't bring Craig Bolton to the club at the end of 03. He was available in the PSD and we had the drop on Sydney. Yet thats where he finished up because at the time it was said that we couldn't meet his salary demand ... which I don't really understand because we had just failed in bringing over Carltons Lappin, who would have been a much more expensive proposition?

As for the blooding of these players.. not so happy. Players like Mcguane should not be playing Coburg reserves.
And players like Meyer should be give chances at AFL level in front of sorry but I have to say it Krak and Roden.These two may become great for us but there is no earthly reason now, why they shouldn't be required to show a bit of it at Coburg, while our under 21's are being given time at the top level so that we can see where they are and have the opportunity to persevere (perhaps by rotation), with those who show a bit like a Thirsty. ???

Its time for players like Chaff and Staff when they do  become available, plus Hall and Kellaway whose form hasn't been great, to be making way for the likes of Hughes, JON, Mcguane, Meyer, Patto, Polo and White, who should all be given 7 to maybe 12 games this season. Mathews seems very good at it. He concentrates on big bodied mainly 6' plus types and gives them opportunities while turning over players who don't produce.

Coming back to recruitment I'd love to see a double whammy. (Additional) recruitment at this years draft through the sale of some still very good players and the use of the PSD and our TPP reserve to bring us another NB?

We may take another 5/6 years to challenge for a flag but if I see at the end of this season that we are sacrificing a little in terms of the group and taking a longer term view in order to bring in the very best youngsters, AND then later giving them opportunities at the highest level, I won't mind the wait.

In fact I'll enjoy it.  ;D 
 
I think it's too simplistic to blame the current team......it's not as if they recruited themseves.
I can only watch the current players each week. I would not waste any time "blaming" a team from 1992 *shrug*. I wasn't talking about recruitment of players anyway, I was talking about membership i.e. the people who part with money and help keep the club financial.

Let's stop whinging folks and get behind the rebuilding.
Can't I express my opinion without being called a whinger? I think I have a valid concern. The importance of the RFC pride and reputation needs to be maintained so that we can attract a loyal, paying membership base on which we can ensure a long term financial future.
 
TOT70 said:
Don't obsess with winning premierships and building a team to win one. All the recent premierships have been won by teams that made the finals for a few years before carrying off the big one. We should look to build a team that will play finals every year. That is what TW is trying to do.
As usual TOT70 you make good sense. I'm not interested in winning one premiership. I want a team that regularly makes the finals for the next 20 years and put ourselves in with a show of winning it every year.
 
To be honest I can't seriously think about finals at the moment. All I'm looking for is a sign of improvement/team building on the field. So far this season it appears we've gone backwards although we have had a much tougher draw this year.

I hope that we can possibly claw our way up to the same position on the ladder as last year. There's plenty of home games ahead and anything is possible. Beyond this year I'd like to see more new talent on the oval and fighting spirit amongst the player group. If we can attain that then finals appearances will be common.
 
momentai said:
Coming back to recruitment I'd love to see a double whammy. (Additional) recruitment at this years draft through the sale of some still very good players and the use of the PSD and our TPP reserve to bring us another NB?

As usual Momentai you're a man of wisdom with your words, good post.

I agree that we should trade 'good players' to get those extra picks in this year's 'superdraft', which players would you use to accomplish this? You thoughts please!
 
Thanks GPP,
North may be more difficult to crack this this year than the Hawks have found in the past, but I have very good info that they were interested last year in both Krak and Tiv but didn't go on with it b/c they reasonably thought that their then current contracts at around $250,000, made them too expensive. These two who I think are both out of contract at the end of the season, may still be a chance.

The Bowden brothers, Gas, Hyde, Newman, Knoble and of course Richo may be of interest to clubs which rightly or wrongly think they are contenders.

Ideally the Bowden brothers to North for their top 5 first rd pick; Gas, Hyde and an early 4th rounder to Freemantle for their mid first round pick; and Knoble and an early third rounder to St Kilda for a late first rounder.

I'd also love to see us go hard for a top flight player through the pre season draft. One very strong possibility is doing well at the Dome as we speak.
 
one of the real problems is that we tend to look at things from a limited or narrow perspective.

midway thru last year we were probably ahead of the likes of dogs and hawks, yet now it looks that they have moved way beyond us.

and we puffed our chests out over wins against port and brisbane, but probably failed to realise they were on the slide.

its hard to draw a form line thru the whole thing.

i'd just like to have a win tonight!