RECRUITING STAFF NOT GOOD ENOUGH | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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RECRUITING STAFF NOT GOOD ENOUGH

Mikee

Will we ever get there?
Feb 21, 2003
1,579
92
Melbourne
>:( I think a very big reason why we are not a champion team is because of our recruiting people. This is where it all starts. I mean in the end, who you recruit and who you have out on the field win matches. Coaches, etc... can only do so much. It's the quality & skill of the players under pressure, in a match, that win games. You can look good on the training track, where no quick decisions are needed to be made, not under game pressure and look to have fantastic skills. In the end you can't teach footy brains, and evasiveness, etc...

We have never recruited well. Eg: Pettifer. He was our first pick at Number 9, what was it, a couple of years back. Now if that's the best we can do, that's s..touse, not good enough. I can't think off the top of my head of other recruits that we've missed who we could have had and picked instead, but I do know we are no way near as good as the Essendon's and more successful teams at spotting and recruiting smart, good footballers. So until we change our recruiting staff, we're gonna be seeing the same old Richmond. Trying hard, getting coach after coach, but not quite getting there because we just don't get good enough players to make it to the finals and ultimately win a premiership. I find this so dissapointing because we have the one of the biggest and definately most passionate supporter bases in the competition. North Melbourne who gets *smile* 10,000 supporters to games win flags and make the finals, and we have so many supporters and do jackshite. How good would it be to see us having consistent success, to see 40,000 Richmond supporters week in week out screaming the 'G' down, the atmosphere would be electric but unfortunately we never get to see this happen because we just aren't talented enough through our playing list.

GO TIGES!!! (Do something, for @&#& sake) ???
 
GO TIGES!!! (Do something, for @&#& sake)   ???
I agree 100% Mikee. Somebody posted a list of our first picks on the old forum, and we have a very low success rate over the years which is extrememly disapointing when those top picks are such a big part of our future.

I hope this will be the start of a new era. There are a mountain of contracts expiring at the end of the season and I expect we'll have a good cleanout.

With the Daffy and Bourkey payments not an issue any more we should have some salary cap freedom.

I'm a lot more confident with Greg Miller in the driving seat, and I think we'll see massive changes at the end of the year....changes I'm a bit more confident will be for the good of the club because of the astuteness of the person in charge.

Hopefully Greg will be remembered in our history as the guy who started a new culture in the Tigerland drafting stakes.
 
Apart from Frawley's lack of coaching ability :) I think that recruiting will be his undoing.

As I wrote before in a previous thread, the club drafted the following younsters in 99' and 00'.

Fiora, Poyas, Homewood, Mills, Zantuck, Petiffer, Coughlan, Krakouer, Hyde, Newman.

Of these players Poyas and Homewood are already gone and both were picks under 40 in 99' and Mills should have followed. Not to mention that Hyde has been delisted and redrafted as well.

Of the 10 rookies drafted from 99' and 00' only one 2 command spots in the starting 18 and only 1 of those looks like being a very good player long term (apologies to Zantuck but your not in Coughlan's class). This in itself would be enough to send those responsible packing but our biggest mistake was picking Fiora ahead of Pavlich. A classic example of picking the type of player that the club needed(?) rather than the best player avaliable.

If we had drafted Pavlich we wouldn't have had to pay *smile* a ridiculas wage, or we could have traded him for a mountain of good draft picks and/or players. Instead we are stuck with a skinny kid who is still a fringe player at best while Pavlich is coming of an All Oz full back spot and looks set to star in the midfield for Freo this year.

Anyway, we can make excuses for our recruiting all we want but the fact remains that Frawley and co have been at the club long enough to sort out the list and any contractual problems from previous administrations and its time they started taking some responsibility.
 
>:( I think a very big reason why we are not a champion team is because of our recruiting people. This is where it all starts. I mean in the end, who you recruit and who you have out on the field win matches. Coaches, etc... can only do so much. It's the quality & skill of the players under pressure, in a match, that win games. … In the end you can't teach footy brains, and evasiveness, etc...

Mikee, maybe you can't teach footy brains, etc., but you can teach things like team spirit and, IMO, the biggest difference between us and any good team is our lack of team spirit and unity. You don't have to take my word for it, just look at the number of big games we get crunched in. On paper, at least, we have a forward set up that should put the fear of God into the opposition. But does it? Not in the big games anyway. To me, that comes back to the ability of the good teams to play as a team. Unlike us, where, under pressure, it becomes a case of every man for himself. And if that's not enough to frustrate any Richmond supporter, then I don't know what is.

If you read articles regarding the successful era of the 60's and 70's, we recruited players such as Kevin Sheedy, who apparently couldn't kick over a jam jar. He developed into an integral part of the team. Do you need to have super skills to survive in this game, or is the desire to succeed more important?

IMO, recruiting players with the capacity to learn and improve is of greater importance than recruiting players with lots of ability, but no ambition.

So until we change our recruiting staff, we're gonna be seeing the same old Richmond. Trying hard, getting coach after coach, but not quite getting there because we just don't get good enough players to make it to the finals and ultimately win a premiership.

How many coaches and staff have we changed in 20 years Mikee? Has that solved anything or just helped cause the situation we can't seem to get ourselves out of? Everybody likes to think that if we change coaches and recruiting staff it will solve all our problems. After 20 years of doing that, I think I can safely say that this solution is only causing us the problems we have.

Why? Because the only way to solve our problems is to see the real problems we have. They are not the people that come to this Club, they are the inability to develop players and to develop team spirit and unity. If you have that, then other things fall into place. And it may not mean we win the premiership, but it's got to be a heck of a lot better than the sort of stuff we've been putting up with all these years.
 
If we had drafted Pavlich we wouldn't have had to pay *smile* a ridiculas wage, or we could have traded him for a mountain of good draft picks and/or players.  Instead we are stuck with a skinny kid who is still a fringe player at best while Pavlich is coming of an All Oz full back spot and looks set to star in the midfield for Freo this year.
let me see *smile*,s contract expired at the end of 2001.in your senerio we would have traded him to freo for high draft picks because we had pavlich.
if i remember we could have lost *smile* for nothing to freo and we knew it.no win situation.

and even if we did trade *smile* who is to say pavlich would have made the same decision and stay at richmond?senerio loose 2 key position players for a bunch of unproven youngsters.

and you think pavlich is not a high wage now?
 
I'm not sure how much our list of dodgy players comes as a result of the recruiting staff doing a *smile* job or if its just a case of plain bad luck. Often it is difficult to predict what a players capabilities will be until they are put in the deep end and forced to swim. Some keep afloat, others don't, but it is very hard to predict who the swimmers will be. As it turns out the players that ultimately become the best are often very low priority draft picks, whilst some that are highly regarded end up doing nothing. If it is just luck that we have been on the wrong end of the stick with our draft picks of late, well then curse this world! But having said this, i think Richmond have made grave mistakes in the past in picking players for particular positions, e.g. going for small forwards. If the recruiting staff had half a brain (between them), they'd know that you have to pick the best players available, and if it happens that we end up having too many talls (for example) well then you use them as trade bait and swap with a club that is deficient in talls and you get a midfielder in return (for example). Trying to specialise with a player is a little risky, because all too often you end up with Pettifers.

By the way, damn I'm spewing we didn't get Pavlich. I'd give Fiora, Gaspar and Pettifer to have him at Richmond in a second. He's going to be a gun player who can play every position on the ground. Fiora and Pettifer are destined to play only one position: the interchange bench. And as for Gaspar, for all his good one on one defensive abilities, he causes more strife with his unco kicking and poor decision making. Curse this world!
 
Our recruiting will only improve once we get past the quick fix mentality. Sacking Beck won't make an ounce of difference as long as we have a club that is always looking short term and thinks wasting draft picks on the likes of Tim fleming will improve our list.

It would also help when the club does actually decide to use a draft pick on a young player if the coaching department actually let the recruiting guy make the choice.
 
... I'm spewing we didn't get Pavlich. ... He's going to be a gun player who can play every position on the ground.

The thing is John, unless we (the Club) wake up to ourselves, if Pavlich did come to Richmond, he'd eventually end up the same as any other player with any sort of talent that seems to land on our doorstep. He'd be copping flak in no time, just like any other player at Richmond seems to.

P.S.: John, this world just doesn't any more curses upon it ... for any reason.
 
Our recruiting will only improve once we get past the quick fix mentality. Sacking Beck won't make an ounce of difference as long as we have a club that is always looking short term and thinks wasting draft picks on the likes of Tim fleming will improve our list.

It would also help when the club does actually decide to use a draft pick on a young player if the coaching department actually let the recruiting guy make the choice.

But you have seen what happens when the club drafts for the long term. We end up with players like Fiora, Petiffer and Poyas. Beck is the longest serving member of the football department and has had ample time to show his hand at picking youngster. His record is ordinary at best and he should be replaced NOW before the u18 comp gets going.
 
Posted by: MC24 Posted on: Today at 4:33pm

The thing is John, unless we (the Club) wake up to ourselves, if Pavlich did come to Richmond, he'd eventually end up the same as any other player with any sort of talent that seems to land on our doorstep. He'd be copping flak in no time, just like any other player at Richmond seems to.


MC24,
Are you telling me that if Fiora and Pettifer went to different clubs they'd be transformed into gun players? And moreover that it is the Richmond culture that makes them sub-standard and not their general ability? I couldn't get care if Pettifer played for the Harlem Globe Trotters, he'd still be a dud. We have just been unfortunate with the players we have selected. Mark Coughlan came through the ranks, and proved himself. That's why he's playing in the center for us. Pettifer and Fiora have proved tiddlywinks, that's why they are bench warmers. We have just been unfortunate to draft some over-rated players who when it comes to the crunch can't make the grade. There may be some hope for Fiora, but i won't be holding my breath. Of late the only decent players we've drafted are David Rodan and Mark Coughlan, and they weren't priority picks.

P.S. Curse this world and it's inequities!
 
These posts are excellent. At last some earnest discussion about what has REALLY been holding us back for 20+ years.

I have been saying for years now that one of the biggest problems we have at Richmond is our hopeless recruiting – and Greg Beckwit has just got to be held accountable. However, in saying that, I believe that our poor recruiting is not mutually exclusive of other problems we have at Richmond. An explanation:

For so long now we have had extraordinarily poor quality Boards in terms of pure football acumen. Refer Tony ‘Colonel Sanders’ Jewell and Peter “Woosie” Welsh as our current contributors.

Geez. The Colonel is the Football Director at the club. What a joke ! His performance on the Footy Show last year where he incited Carlton before the game was typical of the Colonel. I don’t give a rats whether he is our last Premiership coach or not. As a Football Director he’s an absolute fool who has been involved for way, way too long. You wonder why we can’t ever get truly high level coaches like Malthouse and Sheedy to join us ? Board quality, specifically as it relates to pure football matters, is one of your prime reasons. It was the very reason why we couldn’t even land someone like Bomber Thompson and we ended up having to take “I would have thought” Frawley as a 5th option.

And the result of having such a poor quality board in terms of football nous, means that ultimately, we as supporters end up enduring poor decisions, or appointments, to the Football Department. This means coaches (e.g. “Geisha Gal” Geischen and “I would have thought” Frawley), Recruiting Managers (e.g. Beckwit) and Football Managers (e.g. Trevor Poolside). This is the calibre of personnel that end up filling the crucial roles within our club.

So, what we end up having is the recruiting of poor players to play under poor coaches, who as a result of poor performances ultimately end up getting sacked but replaced with people who are just as bad because we have an inadequate Board that’s making the replacement decisions.....and then around and around we go…. year after year…. It’s a vicious circle that we have been unable to get out of for over 20 years.

Perhaps the bright side is that President Nut Casey may realise this – hence his appointment of Harry M. Miller. I’m told that he made that appointment without any consultation with the Board what so ever (which incidentally infuriated the Colonel who almost choked on a breast fillet).

You can write off our immediate future unless we take the following steps at the end of this year:

1. Time to get the likes of the Andrew Ireland's of this world on our board, and the Brian Cook's as our CEO, so the right decisions such as those in respect of points 2 and 3 below can be made.
2. Sack Big Kev and co. Via Harry M., the new board should establish for the first time since Hafey, a %$@$ half decent coach who is prepared to make the tough decisions and deal with points 4, 5, and 6 below. What I’m saying here, is a coach like Malthouse who at Scumwood had the smarts and guts to realise he would go nowhere unless he cleaned out all the crap that had been there for so long. My God, when will this ever happen at RFC ? When ? When ?!!!!
3. Sack Beckwit. Via Harry M., the new board should establish for the first time in 10 years, a &^%$ half decent Recruiting Manager who will not deliver ridiculously poor recruits - young and old year after year. Fair dinkum, this year’s recruiting was an insult to members.
4. Where contracts permit, sack or de-list the following players: Dog Rogers, Burger King, Dudiscombe, Kayne Petrified, Andrew Millstone, Royce Hardly, Cameron Diaz, D. Chumpaway, Houladud etc.
5. Negotiate, where possible, the best deals we can get for: Joelette Bowden, Squibendale, Sh.t Truck Holland, Ty Wood Duck , Aaron Fiona. If it has the guts, include Brad Softtens in this category also.
6. Basically, the whole club and its supporters to accept the fact it may take 3-4 years to re-build from the ^*smile* gross level of ineptitude that we currently reside at.

As far as points 4 and 5 go, people are going to have their opinions on some of these players - and some due to contractual reasons we may be stuck with. But that’s not the point. Regardless, we just must have a big clean out of our players and capture as many of the overrated duds through the process as we possibly can. Enough is enough.

To right this massive, but constantly listing ship, we need some quality personnel at the helm who can make some astute appointments within the engine room, such that paying passengers like ourselves can all enjoy (eventually) some fair weather sailing for once on the good ol' S.S. Richmond. I don't know about you guys, but I can't take much more of this rough weather and the resulting sea sickness these "unchartered waters" are presenting.

Bon Voyage.
 
Great post Redford, especially love all the "names".

I agree that real change begins at the top and the rest will take care of itself. If we had a decent board they'd appoint a decent coach who could then build a decent team etc etc.

Look at Collingwood. Things only started happening when Eddie came on board. DO you think that without him they could have gotten Malthouse?

Or Brisbane who finished last in 1998, trashed the board and appointed some footy brains. With a bit of help from the afl they coax Matthews up North, 3 years later they are premiers with the same core group of players they had in 98'.

And poor old Richmond are in the exact same position they were five years ago. Now obviously it's not that simple but I do believe that getting the right people at the top will go along way to solving our onfield problems.
 
Stop blaming all our players, (except for Rogers, houlihan, and Biddiscombe)!

The underlying problem is quite clear, our team structure and game plan.

Our list is quite ok, but if we don't have the tools eg: coaching staff, we are waisting time.

Young players arrive at Richmond with great expectations, but what happens to them???

That is the question that needs to be anwsered.

For example:

Fiora sleeps all day and doesn't put on weight.

Kayne Pettifer has an attitude problem, third season in a row.

Players continue to turn over the ball under pressure.

Richo "still" doesn't lead into the right spots.

Players kick the ball to high in the air.

We don't run through the lines.

We dont have enough talls.

Too many small and useless forwards.

etc, etc, etc, etc.


Malthouse, Sheedy and Mathews would have fixed these problems. Lets take a good look at how they operate and you will find all the anwsers you need.
 
Redford, you just summed it all up in 1 post. We will just be the leagues battlers/losers/laughing stock until all the above changes are made.
 
You've said it perfect Redford. You said everything i've wanted to say & more. Is it only me or have u noticed how we seem to recruit players with the worst ball-handling ability. We never consistently pick up the ball cleanly. This is so important. Why do we keep recruiting eggs. Rogers. I can't understand why he is still at the club. All he has got is a long booming kick and he tries hard. He fumbles, doesn't look where he is kicking, has no composure at all & falls over half the time. Even when he's not under pressure he looks like he's always under pressure. Been playing for nearly 10 years and he's still a goose, but we keep him year in year out on our list. I can't take this s..t anymore but i love Richmond so i will never abandon them.

We have to go through the steps which Redford explained perfectly in his post regarding this subject.

Yeah, nah, I would have thought. LOL. Well said Redford.
 
Great post Redford!

Disagree with you on Rogers though Mikee as has been posted here somewhere before he has been a victim of never having been given a permanent position. IMO if he was left in a forward pocket he could be an alternative leading taget as he has reasonable hands and his goal sense is as good as any of the other small forward bar Krak (Rodan has potential) but they both lack experience. Pettifer well this year will tell on him.
But if the Tigers don't have a player or players like Rogers providing an alternative to the 'bomb it long' game plan it's another long year in store for us.
 
When you have 39 players on your list including rookies whereas others sides have 42 or 43 - I start to wonder why and when 13 of these players are from other clubs - one third of the list, I start to wonder why again.
Not enough tall developing players on list that can play up back or in ruck. Very much a short term player list to hopefully obtain short term results and keep coaches at their job. I will not even mention some of the guys included in the 13 from other clubs - time will tell.
 
I don't really have issues with the number of players from other clubs, probably moreso with their value to our team.

We could have 13 Michael Voss or Andy McLeaod types from other clubs and we'd be happy.

I am more disappointed with the calibre of player from other clubs.

If players like Gas, Stafford, Rory and Leon etc are good enough to be in our starting 22 and figure in our best and fairests, I don't care if we bred them or imported them.

We have a couple of new guys from other clubs this year who we can't judge yet. Hopefully they'll prove to be valuable imports.

What concerns me is the players from other clubs who don't contribute to our senior team but have contracts forcing us to keep them around.

One year contracts have a lot of appeal to me in some ways, but that could work both ways. If they proved good players for us, their value would rise or other clubs could take them.

I am very concerned with our shortened list, and with the fact we don't have many kids ready to step up and stake their claim.

Even though we have 13 players from other clubs, we still have vacancies on our team and rookie lists that surely could be used to give players of the future a chance.

Hopefully we'll be over our salary cap restrictions and have more freedom in the next drafts.

Rather than the number of players from other clubs, I am amazed how we have some of the highest paid players in the league giving us salary cap problems, in return for very mediocre performance in the last 20 years and the scarey thing is we don't have any really good kids coming on to keep them honest.