Regrets, I've had a few, but then again there's three cups to mention... - Former Tiger Trade Debates

[billybarrot]

I'm still not sure you're getting me.

I'm not that interested in the fact he 'couldn't get a game' or that others had gone past him. You've made that argument before, as have many others, but, if that's where your focus lies, it's at odds with the principle of trading for your own club's betterment. With an attitude like the one you describe, you'd be struggling to ever do a fair-value deal.

Think about Collingwood this past trade period. It was an open secret they were in salary cap strife. They lost their leverage and, arguably, lost badly at the trade table. When Balmey, God bless him, made it public that Butler was free to explore offers, he lost his leverage. I don't like that and, if you're looking for the nub of my position, that is it. We must never trade quality players for unders again. It's a sign we're on good terms with ourselves. In a highly competitive, equalised AFL, we should be wary of giving any sucker an even break. Is it the only consideration? Of course not. Trading and lists are complex. But, in this instance, we failed on this measure.

And I'm most certainly not 'asking for us to rate Butler's trade value on his 2020 form'. If I did, there'd actually be no argument because pick 56 for an AA squad member, top 10 Coleman finish and podium position in a B&F is a ridiculous proposition!

Go back to the Rance and Butler threads and you'll see there were plenty of us whose eyebrows were raised by the trade at the time.

That said, the fact Butler franked those opinions in 2020 is why this discussion has to be revisited.

Huddo in the call last night:

'Butler picking up from where he left off last year; second in the best and fairest, part of the All Australian extended squad, 63% goal accuracy, as well ... all great feats from the man they picked up from Richmond for a bargain basement price.'

Will I be back in 2 years' time if he fails from this point forward? Well, I can't change the opinion I had in 2019 when I said we gave him away too cheaply. I stand by it. The kid is class. I think it's more likely you'll be back here in 2 years' time saying we stuffed this one up. Let's see!

You can only value goods on what the buyer is willing to pay. St Kilda were the only game in town.
We got him for Pick 67, sold to the only bidder for 56.

 

[Number8]

St Kilda obviously do have their moments, don't get me wrong, but I think there is a reason they always seems to stumble in the really big games. And it comes down to a lack of accountability for the opposition from players in crucial moments. They are great front runners when things are going well, but when players need to step up, they seem to always lack enough players to do so. They free wheel with the best of them, but when a change of gears is required, they lack the teeth to grind.

It'll be interesting @Streak to see if the recent influx of players at St Kilda gives them more of what they already have or allows them to get down and dirty when required. Arguably Jones and Hannebery give them a bit of this, and the likes of Clark, Long and Sinclair are made of the right stuff. I'm full of respect and admiration for Brett Ratten and I'm certain the Saints are on the rise.

So I don't think anyone can say we didn't get unders for him in terms of the draft pick, but I think that, as harsh as it seems, that was never seen as the payoff for the trade by Richmond. Opening up an opportunity for someone else on our list was.

I think this is by far the most logical and plausible argument for the club accepting minimum chips for Butler. And it's the one I can best live with. These notions that we want to be the good guys in every trade make me feel a bit queasy. I don't recall any other club doing us any favours when we were down and out!

 

[Number8]

You can only value goods on what the buyer is willing to pay. St Kilda were the only game in town.
We got him for Pick 67, sold to the only bidder for 56.

I didn't realise we were compelled to trade him for whatever St Kilda would give us. Guess we should be thankful the generous Saints coughed up such an outstanding pick.

 

[ceehook2]

something Konrad Marshall was relaying from Dimma ,
he is keen to have fresh faces in the side/squad … stops you from getting stale

Butler , Higgins , Markov could have all been victims of that , the need to keep the list fresh
and if they weren't a lock for a top side spot , they find themselves on the wrong side of the white board

they had enough currency to be of interest to other clubs

but not enough to give us much bargaining power

we seem to be very good at our talent spotting over the last few years
and our player development

so not getting a great return for those 3 isn't tragic for the club
and can create some good will when we do target someone like Nank , unproven at his current club
players ahead of him there and would fill a list need with us

 

[Number8]

Butler , Higgins , Markov could have all been victims of that , the need to keep the list fresh

so not getting a great return for those 3 isn't tragic for the club

I reckon the Higgins trade was about right. The idea of drafting him in the first place was questionable, though.

Markov is harder to judge because, while he was more than capable at AFL level for us, HBF isn't the hardest spot on the ground to fill. I don't doubt he'll do pretty well at Gold Coast.

Have I told you what I think about the Butler trade?

 

[bairdy380]

I cant remember last time we dispensed with an indispensable player?

Ottens

 

[zippadeee]

I'm still not sure you're getting me.

I'm not that interested in the fact he 'couldn't get a game' or that others had gone past him. You've made that argument before, as have many others, but, if that's where your focus lies, it's at odds with the principle of trading for your own club's betterment. With an attitude like the one you describe, you'd be struggling to ever do a fair-value deal.

Think about Collingwood this past trade period. It was an open secret they were in salary cap strife. They lost their leverage and, arguably, lost badly at the trade table. When Balmey, God bless him, made it public that Butler was free to explore offers, he lost his leverage. I don't like that and, if you're looking for the nub of my position, that is it. We must never trade quality players for unders again. It's a sign we're on good terms with ourselves. In a highly competitive, equalised AFL, we should be wary of giving any sucker an even break. Is it the only consideration? Of course not. Trading and lists are complex. But, in this instance, we failed on this measure.

And I'm most certainly not 'asking for us to rate Butler's trade value on his 2020 form'. If I did, there'd actually be no argument because pick 56 for an AA squad member, top 10 Coleman finish and podium position in a B&F is a ridiculous proposition!

Go back to the Rance and Butler threads and you'll see there were plenty of us whose eyebrows were raised by the trade at the time.

That said, the fact Butler franked those opinions in 2020 is why this discussion has to be revisited.

Huddo in the call last night:

'Butler picking up from where he left off last year; second in the best and fairest, part of the All Australian extended squad, 63% goal accuracy, as well ... all great feats from the man they picked up from Richmond for a bargain basement price.'

Will I be back in 2 years' time if he fails from this point forward? Well, I can't change the opinion I had in 2019 when I said we gave him away too cheaply. I stand by it. The kid is class. I think it's more likely you'll be back here in 2 years' time saying we stuffed this one up. Let's see!

How beautiful was it, watching a game that didn't evole us and they didn't stop comparing everything and anything to us.
During the 2nd qtr it was, "That's the way Richmond goes about it'
"This style needs to be tested against Richmond'
Jonathon Brown was full of praise.
Huddo couldnt believe we let players like Higgins and Bulter go.
Enjoy it now because as soon as we turn to shiit they will come hard after us again.

 

[Number8]

I cant remember last time we dispensed with an indispensable player?

Torney, Maxfield, Matt Clarke ... all quite a while ago.

S c h u l t z (why does his name trigger the swear filter?) and White went OK at Port; Peter Wilson did well back in WA.

Lambert was a loss.

Ottens definitely the king of the pile.

 

[zippadeee]

Torney, Maxfield, Matt Clarke ... all quite a while ago.

S c h u l t z (why does his name trigger the swear filter?) and White went OK at Port; Peter Wilson did well back in WA.

Lambert was a loss.

Ottens definitely the king of the pile.

Ottens will be our biggest loss in the last 25 years.
Maxfield 2nd
Lambert/Shultz 3rd

 

[tigerman]

Whilst it may not be a popular choice i really want Josh Green to be the 'other' player to get the last remaining spot on the list
He just has that size that we are lacking in the midfield currently unless RCD makes the grade and also has the size to be that swingman to compliment the boys we have.

Also the brother factor

I just love the thread title turk.

Yes, there were times I'm sure we all knew
When we bit off more than we could chew
But through it all, when there was doubt
We ate it up and spat it out
We faced it all, and Richo stood tall, and we did it our way!!!!

 

[St Kevin]

I cant remember last time we dispensed with an indispensable player?

Ottens? Either way, been a long time.

 

[ceehook2]

Ottens

didn't he dispense with us because we were going nowhere ?
and went to the Cats because they looked like and did win a premiership

 

[YinnarTiger]

Simply brilliant, change made.

Also appreciate the kindness shown to the apostrophe.

 

[Harry]

Butler is good in open space but average when it's tight. He was exposed in the final against us. A passage of play where he stopped chasing and let Cotch waltz the ball out of defense was highlighted during the game.

The saints have too many soft small forward front runners. Butler Lonie Billings Gresham aint winning you a flag. Wheres the grunt and hard work that george rioli lambert provide?

 

[Smoking Aces]

Butler is good in open space but average when it's tight. He was exposed in the final against us. A passage of play where he stopped chasing and let Cotch waltz the ball out of defense was highlighted during the game.

The saints have too many soft small forward front runners. Butler Lonie Billings Gresham aint winning you a flag. Wheres the grunt and hard work that george rioli lambert provide?

Great call Harry.

 

[tigerman]

Butler is good in open space but average when it's tight. He was exposed in the final against us. A passage of play where he stopped chasing and let Cotch waltz the ball out of defense was highlighted during the game.

The saints have too many soft small forward front runners. Butler Lonie Billings Gresham aint winning you a flag. Wheres the grunt and hard work that george rioli lambert provide?

My memory of Butts last few games with us was his lack of awareness. For all the pace that he had, he kept getting caught with the ball.
A premiership player, he will always have a place in my heart.

 

[zippadeee]

Butler is good in open space but average when it's tight. He was exposed in the final against us. A passage of play where he stopped chasing and let Cotch waltz the ball out of defense was highlighted during the game.

The saints have too many soft small forward front runners. Butler Lonie Billings Gresham aint winning you a flag. Wheres the grunt and hard work that george rioli lambert provide?

99% of the player's these days wouldnt survive a qtr in the 80's/90"s.
They recruit athlete's instead of Maxfield's and Knighter's.
Bulter's role is simple.
Try and break open the play or to run on the loose ball.
He dosent it extremely well.
Bulter on the wing on the G wouldve been beautiful to watch.

 

[Number8]

Butler is good in open space but average when it's tight. He was exposed in the final against us. A passage of play where he stopped chasing and let Cotch waltz the ball out of defense was highlighted during the game.

The saints have too many soft small forward front runners. Butler Lonie Billings Gresham aint winning you a flag. Wheres the grunt and hard work that george rioli lambert provide?

No doubt Butler is a fantastic forward runner and smart goal-sneak, but he also averages more tackles over his career than all of Castagna, Rioli and Lambert, both inside 50 and across the ground generally. Plus, 30% more goals on average than the next best of them. What more do you want from a small forward?

 

[Dont Argue]

No doubt Butler is a fantastic forward runner and smart goal-sneak, but he also averages more tackles over his career than all of Castagna, Rioli and Lambert, both inside 50 and across the ground generally. Plus, 30% more goals on average than the next best of them. What more do you want from a small forward?

Consistency and loyalty?

 

[AngryAnt]

Butler is good in open space but average when it's tight. He was exposed in the final against us. A passage of play where he stopped chasing and let Cotch waltz the ball out of defense was highlighted during the game.

The saints have too many soft small forward front runners. Butler Lonie Billings Gresham aint winning you a flag. Wheres the grunt and hard work that george rioli lambert provide?

Good assessment Hazza