RFC alters Best and Fairest records

spook

It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue.
Jun 18, 2007
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Totally unnecessary. Rare poor call from the club these days.
 
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LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
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Move seems to be unpopular, which I don't understand.

Rhett Bartlett pointed out some years ago that there was no evidence that the club held the best & fairest award in 1932, and in other early seasons. At that time the club rejected an application by Rhett and fellow historian Trevor Ruddell to revisit the honour board. Dyer was first credited with the win in the 1988 annual report. There is no trophy and no mention in any of the daily newspapers which regularly covered club AGM's etc.

I'm no more comfortable with fictitious winners than I am with e.g. Bruce Pascoe's brand of history. And Dyer's legendary standing remains undiminished.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Superstar
Dec 11, 2017
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I saw the article on the app and it seemed a bit strange.

Just can't see the point really . . . unless there is an agenda.

DS
 

spook

It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue.
Jun 18, 2007
11,120
1,288
Move seems to be unpopular, which I don't understand.

Rhett Bartlett pointed out some years ago that there was no evidence that the club held the best & fairest award in 1932, and in other early seasons. At that time the club rejected an application by Rhett and fellow historian Trevor Ruddell to revisit the honour board. Dyer was first credited with the win in the 1988 annual report. There is no trophy and no mention in any of the daily newspapers which regularly covered club AGM's etc.

I'm no more comfortable with fictitious winners than I am with e.g. Bruce Pascoe's brand of history. And Dyer's legendary standing remains undiminished.
Have you read any Bruce Pascoe?
 

jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
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Seems a touch agenda driven by Rhett to have KB the equal B&F leader. You would think they awarded them in the 80s with good reason and evidence
 
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Tenacious

Tiger Champion
May 19, 2008
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Geez - right off the top of my head this seems weird and unnecessary
I’ve long admired Rhett Bartletts work on club history including his oral history recordings
And other than a snippet here I’ve got no idea if this involves him or not
But this is a classic case for me if wising I’d never heard it
The devil you know - Let sleeping dogs lie - and all that
Ignorance sure is bliss
 

spook

It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue.
Jun 18, 2007
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Bruce Pascoe the non-indigenous Aboriginal? Only selected passages where he deliberately misquotes Sturt's diaries in order to paint a fantastical panorama of Aboriginal civilisation at the time of European settlement.

ABORIGINAL GROUPS DECLARE: BRUCE PASCOE ISN'T ABORIGINAL (paywalled)

I regret mentioning Pascoe. Back to Dyer...
Interesting.

Anyway, back to Dyer. If the club in 1988 looked through the match reports and found that Jack was more often named in the best players than anyone else in 1932, I'm fine with them retrospectively awarding him the B&F. It seems a little ungracious and a tad distasteful - not to mention a waste of time and resources for Rhett Bartlett to have driven this for nearly 20 years.
 

antman

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Nov 25, 2004
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Lee's the grand-master of working in his politics to whatever footy thread he can. Anyway reverse congratulations to Jack Dyer.
 
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LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
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Lee's the grand-master of working in his politics to whatever footy thread he can.
Hahahahaha! Are we about facts, or does history exist to be moulded to what we want it to be?

Dyer used to be credited with 226 games as coach, but it was found that four Richmond games were included in his tally while he was away on Victorian duties. The record was duly amended.

When Bartlett was playing - prior to the computer era - he was docked two games after a manual recount by the VFL. From memory he was pretty annoyed!

Jack Titus used to be credited with a then-record 204 consecutive games, but it was corrected fairly recently to 202.

This is just another example where a correction is being made after somebody made a mistake. Dyer is not the only player affected. Some greats of the club have been relieved of their only b&f "win".

From tigerlandarchive.org:
The earliest published list of Richmond’s Best and Fairest winners appeared in the club’s 1969 annual report.
This list stretched back only as far as 1940. The listings after this year may be regarded as very reliable. They were probably based on annual inscriptions on a perpetual trophy or a honor board.

In 1941 the perpetual Vic Thorp Shield was inaugurated and the name of Richmond’s Best and Fairest Player was inscribed on it until 1954. From 1955 Richmond’s Best and Fairest winners were no longer inscribed on the shield (which was full) but written on the Harry Dyke Honour Board. Therefore, there is an unbroken list of Best and Fairest winners from the beginning of the 1940s. This list is corroborated by contemporary accounts of the award winners in Richmond’s annual reports and the press. Therefore, there is no issue regarding current list of Best and Fairest from the 1940s onwards.
Richmond’s annual reports from 1969 until 1987 listed Best and Fairest winners only as far back as 1940 (this was corroborated in VFL publications).

The Best and Fairest list was extended back to 1921 in Richmond’s 1988 Annual Report. In Richmond’s 1993 Annual Report the list was extended further back still to 1911 but not one of those additions is supported by evidence.

As a result, this site has removed: 1911 Bill Mahoney, 1913 Charlie Ricketts, 1914 Sid Reeves, 1916 Arthur Bettles, 1917 Vic Thorp, 1918 Barney Herbert, 1919 Barney Herbert, 1920 Dan Minogue, 1922 Mel Morris, 1923 Hugh James, 1924 Vic Thorp, 1925 Tom O'Halloran, 1926 Alan Geddes, 1932 Jack Dyer, 1933 Maurie Hunter and 1936 Martin Bolger.
 
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antman

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Nov 25, 2004
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Hahahahaha! Are we about facts, or does history exist to be moulded to what we want it to be?

Dyer used to be credited with 226 games as coach, but it was found that four Richmond games were included in his tally while he was away on Victorian duties. The record was duly amended.

When Bartlett was playing - prior to the computer era - he was docked two games after a manual recount by the VFL. From memory he was pretty annoyed!

Jack Titus used to be credited with a then-record 204 consecutive games, but it was corrected fairly recently to 202.

This is just another example where a correction is being made after somebody made a mistake. Dyer is not the only player affected. Some greats of the club have been relieved of their only b&f "win".

From tigerlandarchive.org:
Not disputing the RFC history, how the **** would I know. I don't have access to the primary sources. I'm talking about your political views.

Personally I love banging on about politics too but probably best to keep the footy and politics separate as not everyone appreciates it.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
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Not disputing the RFC history, how the **** would I know. I don't have access to the primary sources. I'm talking about your political views.

Never mind, carry on.
Three historians researched the subject, put a motion to the club some years ago to have the historical record corrected, and were turned down. This time, after a two-year investigation, the club supported the historians' findings. Perhaps the compilers of the 1988 and 1993 annual reports are no longer around; putting them in the hot seat would probably have caused embarrassment.

Worth remembering also the parlous state of the club at the time of those reports. Our proud history was practically the only thing we had going for us. Perhaps that's why the records were "embellished".
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Superstar
Dec 11, 2017
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Do we now melt down the "premiership cups" from 1943 and prior to then? After all, they were made much later.

I really can't see the point of this but I'm not going to think about it much, we all know how good Dyer, and others, were back in the day even if we didn't have a formal B&F back then.

DS
 
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antman

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Nov 25, 2004
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Three historians researched the subject, put a motion to the club some years ago to have the historical record corrected, and were turned down. This time, after a two-year investigation, the club supported the historians' findings. Perhaps the compilers of the 1988 and 1993 annual reports are no longer around; putting them in the hot seat would probably have caused embarrassment.

Worth remembering also the parlous state of the club at the time of those reports. Our proud history was practically the only thing we had going for us. Perhaps that's why the records were "embellished".
Yeah that's all fine, it's your introduction of the political nonsense around Bruce Pascoe that gives me the irrits dude