RFC alters Best and Fairest records

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,890
1,083
Melbourne
Why? I think any evidence should definitively prove that the awards weren't given out, not that can't proof that that they were - the onus is on the prosecution.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Someone decided in 1988 that these players won the club best & fairest award. There is no record of these winners prior to 1988, therefore we need to see the basis for the 1988 additions.
Huh? Rhett is suggesting that the club gave out more awards without the approval of the club?
I don't know how the 16 new winners of a non-existent award could have found their way into the annual report without the club's approval. Would be useful if Rhett could elaborate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

123kid

Tiger Superstar
May 1, 2016
1,649
415
The thing I remember as a kid is the spirit in which people spoke about Jack Dyer’s legendary, fearless character traits. In contrast, I didn’t even remember that Bartlett won 5 awards until this article reminded me.

Retrospectively applying an award to 1932 or not won’t change how he’s remembered.

We could look at a modern example in Richo. In 50 years, Richo will be talked about as a legendary figure in his own right (I’ll make sure of it lol). For great figures in club history, it’s all about the spirit in the way people speak about them that matters, and on that front nothing has changed for Jack Dyer.

Well, maybe it has actually... the club has shifted from worshipping messiahs of the past like they did from the 80’s-00’s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

tigerman

Nank should grow a mullet.
Mar 17, 2003
9,348
813
Tigerland-The history of the Richmond Football Club from 1885, written by Brian Hansen, was published in 1989 (it says 1988 on the RFC website) by the Richmond Former Players and Officials Association.
I'd suggest that the retrospective awarding of B&f's coincides with it's publication.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,890
1,083
Melbourne
Tigerland-The history of the Richmond Football Club from 1885, written by Brian Hansen, was published in 1989 (it says 1988 on the RFC website) by the Richmond Former Players and Officials Association.
I'd suggest that the retrospective awarding of B&f's coincides with it's publication.
I had thought of that, but my edition is from the end of 1991 (and contains the updated list). Didn't know there was an earlier version. Very plausible.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,890
1,083
Melbourne
Good story I assume the AFL are still sticking to their incorrect version
Yeah, still in this year's edition with the footnote "Progressively, print media end-of-season summaries which provide information on players credited with outstanding season performances are being investigated. Players who have already been identified have been added to the above list."

Topically, Dyer is now credited by the AFL as both the 1942 and 1943 Champion of the Colony! And in Peter Blair's history of the Brownlow Medal and his dicussion of the war years when the award was suspended, he nominates Dyer as the popular choice for best player in 1944. On top of his five official b&f's 1937-40 and 1946 - with a bung knee - he must've been an incredible player.

Edit: Regarding the 40's... according to Jack Dyer Jnr, Dyer and Dick Harris informed the board they did not want to be awarded votes in the b&f, which accounts for the gap in b&f wins between 1940 and 1946.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,669
995
Bali/Jakarta
Yep.

Lee rails against revisionism when the awards made in the 80s and 90s were themselves a revision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,669
995
Bali/Jakarta
This thread on Big Footy has information direct from Rhett Bartlett. Of course if you think it's all a big Bartlett conspiracy you'd probably discount it, but I don't. https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/goto/post?id=63790241

From Rhett himself

In 2000, Trevor Ruddell (MCC Asst.Librarian), Roland Weeks (Museum Curator), and myself began reviewing the club's minute books and we noticed discrepancies with the Life Membership list (which have been subsequently changed), and then noticed discrepancies with Best and Fairest list.
So it seems overzealous officials went back over records in 1988 and 1993, and drew the wrong conclusions. That was the error of "revisionism".

Another post on the topic.

mauricerioli said:


A bit pedantic I reckon.

If the club decided in the 80s that these blokes deserved to win the best and fairest for those years they should have just left it, and maybe just put an asterisk next those years saying it was awarded retrospectively.
Strongly disagree. In Peter Blair's comprehensive history of the Brownlow Medal, he notes that Dyer was the popular choice for the League's best player in 1944, while the award was suspended. What you're suggesting would be like the AFL publishing in next year's season guide that Dyer won the 1944 Brownlow. It's bunkum.

Socrates2 said:


Rhett said they were awarded in the late 80's retrospectively, what's the story with that? I can't find any info.
Apparently Dyer's name was first associated with the award in the 1988 annual report.

Not going to post any more on this topic. Just surprised there is so much opposition to making the club's history more accurate. It's about established facts, not interpretations.
Personally I tend to agree with this take.
 
Last edited:

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,669
995
Bali/Jakarta
Another post from Rhett late in the thread...


rmcq said:
Rhett, do you have any further information on what happened in 1988?
I do, but I dont want to throw anyone under a bus etc, suffice to say when the changes were made retrospectively the documents used (Annual Reports, Minute Books) were misinterpreted.

The committee and board accept this to be the case, hence the changes
So it really seems like the club stuffed up in the 80s/90s on this and the recent decision is true to the actual history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,890
1,083
Melbourne
Agree 100%

So what's your position now Lee - you support the revisionism of the 80s/90s or you support the revisionism of this year?
I support the truth prevailing in all cases, and from that perspective believe the club has taken the right (and more difficult) path this year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

tigermike

Tiger Matchwinner
Apr 6, 2014
991
101
I presume many of you have seen this... https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/richmond-icon-jack-dyer-loses-1932-best-and-fairest-after-two-year-investigation-c-581726
So the door is not closed on this subject. If Dyer Jnr and his family can produce evidence to confirm Jack's win in 1932 that would be great but it may not be possible given the large number of years for which no award was given between 1908 - 1939 (see below). Why would it not be awarded? If there is no evidence as to who won it was it due to poor record-keeping by those on the committee in those years or did they have a reason? 1914-1918 was WW1, but why so many other years left out? The gaps between 1930 and 1936 are weird considering evidence for Ray Martin in 1935 exists!

Richmond Best and Fairest Winners 1908 - 1939 https://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2019-11-29/historical-records-amended-after-investigation
1908: Not awarded
1909: No awarded
1910: Not awarded
1911: Not awarded
1912: No awarded
1913: Not awarded
1914: Not awarded
1915: Not awarded
1916: Not awarded
1917: Not awarded
1918: Not awarded
1919: Not awarded
1920: Not awarded
1921: Not awarded
1922: Not awarded
1923: Not awarded
1924: Not awarded
1925: Not awarded
1926: Not awarded
1927: Basil McCormack
1928: Basil McCormack
1929: Jack Titus
1930: Not awarded
1931: Not Awarded
1932: Not awarded
1933: Not awarded
1934: Not awarded
1935: Ray Martin
1936: Not awarded
1937: Jack Dyer
1938: Jack Dyer
1939: Jack Dyer
 

YinnarTiger

Opening goal, 23 Sept 2017
May 2, 2007
6,815
119
70
Gippsland
maybe they couldn't be arsed
This sometimes happens. I won the Animal of the Trip Award at my club in 1974 but can't find any documentation for it. People in those days just didn't think it was worth writing up.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 2 users