RFC alters Best and Fairest records

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
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Why would it not be awarded?
It just wasn't formalised prior to Vic Thorp's death in October 1941, upon which it was inaugurated as an annual award. Previously it may have been presented as a "best player" trophy, perhaps paid for by wealthy supporters who may not always have been flush in the Depression era, but certainly not as part of an annual gala event like the modern Jack Dyer Medal night. This was a time when Brownlow winners were informed of their success via telegram.

Richmond's first recognised b&f was presented in 1927. Collingwood's first was in 1927 and Carlton's in 1929.

Geelong stretches all the way back to the first VFL season in 1897, but there are a lot of gaps pior to 1930. Aside from Haydn Bunton in 1934-35, Fitzroy has no award recorded between 1929 and 1944, despite its players claiming five Brownlows in six years in the 1930s.
 
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tigermike

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Apr 6, 2014
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It just wasn't formalised prior to Vic Thorp's death in October 1941, upon which it was inaugurated as an annual award. Previously it may have been presented as a "best player" trophy, perhaps paid for by wealthy supporters who may not always have been flush in the Depression era, but certainly not as part of an annual gala event like the modern Jack Dyer Medal night. This was a time when Brownlow winners were informed of their success via telegram.

Richmond's first recognised b&f was presented in 1927. Collingwood's first was in 1927 and Carlton's in 1929.

Geelong stretches all the way back to the first VFL season in 1897, but there are a lot of gaps pior to 1930. Aside from Haydn Bunton in 1934-35, Fitzroy has no award recorded between 1929 and 1944, despite its players claiming five Brownlows in six years in the 1930s.
Thanks LTRTR, this info reminds us how different life was in those days.
 
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Scoop

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Dec 8, 2004
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The change doesn't enhance KB nor denigrate JD's legacy but it causes a lot of undue debate.

If it doesn't improve the club, the people, the legacy of the club don't do it. Improved today and the future.

Really surprised the club went this way. Three days later and it still feels wrong.
 

Brimmy

Tassie Tiger
Apr 19, 2018
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We must be going well.The Opposition,Media &AFL can’t divide us,so we have to do it to ourselves.
I thought the new successful Richmond had given up shooting ourself in the foot,seems not,this was always going to be a divisive issue with a LOSE/LOSE outcome.
No winners here unless you rate the self-satisfied smirk of the Pedants.
Staggering the Board got sucked into this shamozzle.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
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Must be a slow AFL news period for this issue to still be ticking along. As LTRTRTRTRTRTR said early on, in no way does this take anything away from Jack Dyer. He's still or greatest ever champion. Not sure it does anything to enhance KB's reputation either.

Non-issue that I expect Collingwood to follow with a similar review because, well, it's what they do.
 
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tigerlove

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Aug 9, 2014
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The change doesn't enhance KB nor denigrate JD's legacy but it causes a lot of undue debate.

If it doesn't improve the club, the people, the legacy of the club don't do it. Improved today and the future.

Really surprised the club went this way. Three days later and it still feels wrong.
I'm with you on this. Seems there's plenty of evidence to prove JD was the best player that year. No proof of B&F being awarded, that may be so, it may not (lack of proof doesn't mean it never happened) but he was subsequently awarded it based on being the best player, so what benefit is there in removing what can't be proven either way. Should have let it be. Really a bit of a conflict for Rhett Bartlett to be so involved int he identification of this as well.
 

hutstar

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Dec 17, 2002
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Seems a touch agenda driven by Rhett to have KB the equal B&F leader. You would think they awarded them in the 80s with good reason and evidence
You think? There were many decisions made on the 80's, but very few good ones. Look, if it wasn't awarded, it wasn't awarded. Let's move on.
 
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hutstar

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For me the evidence needs to be made transparent.

If they are just relying on newspaper reports and annual reports not mentioning it, and the fact no-one can find a 90 year old trophy lying around then I reckon it doesn't pass the pub test.

Especially when, as someone mentioned, Dyer and the 15 other removed winners for the most part accepted the award at the time, so the implication with this decision was they did so under false pretences.

I'd be interested to know if there was anyone from those eras who they were able to actually speak to.
Isn't this like asking for proof of God? The point is that there isn't any proof. If someone can produce proof, then the club will add them to the honour role, but otherwise, it didn't happen and wishing it so doesn't make it so.
 

The Big Richo

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Aug 19, 2010
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Isn't this like asking for proof of God? The point is that there isn't any proof. If someone can produce proof, then the club will add them to the honour role, but otherwise, it didn't happen and wishing it so doesn't make it so.
What about the people accepting their awards when they were given out in the 80s and Jack Dyer writing about winning it in his book?

Or is the club's position that they are all liars and frauds?
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
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What about the people accepting their awards when they were given out in the 80s and Jack Dyer writing about winning it in his book?

Or is the club's position that they are all liars and frauds?
Dyer never mentioned it in the original version of the book, published in the 1960's. The reference is from the 1990's reprint.
 
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hutstar

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Dec 17, 2002
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What about the people accepting their awards when they were given out in the 80s and Jack Dyer writing about winning it in his book?

Or is the club's position that they are all liars and frauds?
They we're not, as far as I know, "given out". They showed up in an annual report in 1988, essentially out of nowhere. Why, if it was an accepted fact that Dyer won it in 1932, did no person complain about being left out of the historical record for 56 years prior to 1988? It's an emotional topic for some and I'm not looking for an argument, particularly on a topic where, ideally, I'd prefer it was otherwise - but to suggest bias or some kind of fraud is not on either. If the evidence suggests there was an admin bungle in 1988 but otherwise there's no record of the award, then it is what it is.
 

antman

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Nov 25, 2004
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If the evidence suggests there was an admin bungle in 1988 but otherwise there's no record of the award, then it is what it is.
This is precisely what Rhett says on BF. Personally I don't believe Rhett has any agenda other than being a good historian of the RFC.
 

Bernie

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Aug 19, 2008
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They we're not, as far as I know, "given out". They showed up in an annual report in 1988, essentially out of nowhere. Why, if it was an accepted fact that Dyer won it in 1932, did no person complain about being left out of the historical record for 56 years prior to 1988? It's an emotional topic for some and I'm not looking for an argument, particularly on a topic where, ideally, I'd prefer it was otherwise - but to suggest bias or some kind of fraud is not on either. If the evidence suggests there was an admin bungle in 1988 but otherwise there's no record of the award, then it is what it is.
I just reviewed my copy of each of the RFC Annual Reports 1967 - 1970.

Conspicuously, these each highlight that year's B&F winner.

However, when recording the history of past years' results none of these records previous years' B&F winners despite highlighting the club's leading goal kicker back to 1908.

When the Tigers won the drought breaking '67 Flag, the Club published a history book, which, of course, I kept!

Here's the front cover and the page relating to Jack Dyer.

damn, cannot upload these!IMG_6516 (2).jpgIMG_6516 (3).jpgIMG_6516 (3).jpg
 

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tigerman

Nank should grow a mullet.
Mar 17, 2003
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They we're not, as far as I know, "given out". They showed up in an annual report in 1988, essentially out of nowhere.
I suspect that the retrospective B&f's that appeared out of the blue in 1988 coincides with "Tigerland-The history of the Richmond Football Club from 1885". It was written by Brian Hansen and published by the Richmond Former Players and Officials Association.
It would appear to be more than a coincidence that records were updated around the same that the book was published.
 
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jb03

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Jan 28, 2004
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You think? There were many decisions made on the 80's, but very few good ones. Look, if it wasn't awarded, it wasn't awarded. Let's move on.
Jack Dyer calls himself the winner of that B&F in his book. I think they need to have definitive evidence that it wasn't awarded, not that they can't find evidence that it was awarded.
People are being pretty dismissive of the administrators in the 80s.
 
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LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
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It was written by Brian Hansen
Coincidentally, Hansen also co-wrote the Dyer autobiography.

Have to wonder whether there has been some sort of ongoing enmity between the Dyers and the Bartletts, given the reaction of the Dyer family.

All I can recall in that regard was footage of Bartlett at a function, early 80's, saying that Jack was a great commentator because he kept supporters of both sides happy, because nobody knew where the ball was! Then proceeded to perform a pisstake of Jack's commentary in which the ball was bounced in the centre and eventually went through for a goal without a single player's name being mentioned, which brought the house down. Bartlett of course having unusually good elocution for a footballer, versus Jack's famous "Dyerisms".
 

tigerman

Nank should grow a mullet.
Mar 17, 2003
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Coincidentally, Hansen also co-wrote the Dyer autobiography.

Have to wonder whether there has been some sort of ongoing enmity between the Dyers and the Bartletts, given the reaction of the Dyer family.

All I can recall in that regard was footage of Bartlett at a function, early 80's, saying that Jack was a great commentator because he kept supporters of both sides happy, because nobody knew where the ball was! Then proceeded to perform a pisstake of Jack's commentary in which the ball was bounced in the centre and eventually went through for a goal without a single player's name being mentioned, which brought the house down. Bartlett of course having unusually good elocution for a footballer, versus Jack's famous "Dyerisms".
I'd like to think that things were ok between Captain Blood and KB.
Kb gave a nice eulogy at Jack's funeral.
I'd rather not know who instigated the investigation, though i do have my suspicions.


Bartlett told the church service how Dyer almost single-handedly saved the club from extinction during the Save Our Skins crisis in the early 1990s.

"We needed to raise $1.5 million -- I had my doubts that we could do it," Bartlett said.

"But Jack Dyer strode out on to the ground and spoke about everything the club meant to him and to them. He saved the club with one speech."

In remembering Dyer, Kevin Bartlett recalled the first time he met Jack after he had been injured during an under-19s game at the MCG in 1963.

The match had started early in the morning and Bartlett's parents hadn't arrived at the ground in time to see him carried off.

Dyer made his way to the changerooms to console the youngster, telling him he'd soon be feeling "as good as gold" and would be out of hospital the following day.

Years later, Bartlett told Dyer he had spent more than two weeks in hospital. "And he said to me: 'I didn't know much about hips -- I only knew about collarbones'," Bartlett said. Dyer was reputed to have broken the collarbones of 64 opponents.